Government Operations Committee on May 4th, 2020

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sure.

To whomever would like to pick this up, we've heard today from Alison that we wanted to make sure that the government got the money out the door as fast as it possibly could. I couldn't agree more. Certainly, we've been calling for universally applied benefits, avenues that would put money into the pockets of Canadians as quickly as we possibly can.

I'm sure that there must have been a consideration for a basic annual income, notwithstanding the fact that every step along the way, every policy that's put forward, there seem to be people who are left behind. What would be the net cost, after taxes, of providing a minimum basic income for all adult Canadians?

[Andrew Marsland]

Perhaps I could take that one, Mr. Chair.

That's a difficult question. I mean, you can look at it in different ways. If you gave, say, $2,000 to the almost 30 million tax filers, then the mathematics—I can't work that out in my head—it's an awful lot every month if it were $2,000.

Really, my understanding of universal basic income is that it's not just about sending an amount to every adult. It's about, essentially, a universal amount to every adult, but also a tax system that targets that appropriately. In that context, while I appear to be avoiding the question, it's very difficult to answer the question because it goes very much to the design.

The first part of it, the payment to every adult in the country, obviously, is extraordinarily expensive. The net cost depends on the ultimate design.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It just appears, and it's been very clear—and I'm sure every MP who has a constituency office will tell you—that for every announcement that has been made, there have been people who have been systemically left out of this process. I would agree that we need to get money into the pockets of every Canadian as fast as we can, people who need it the most, people who are here, struggling through this unprecedented time. It just seems to me that we're still overburdening the bureaucracy with complicated means testing when we have an opportunity to get that out.

Mr. Chair, do you know how much time I have left in my questioning?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I've given you an extra 30 seconds, Mr. Green. You're at about six minutes and 30 seconds now.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Oh. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I guess I'll wait till the next round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We will now go into our second round, which has five-minute durations. We will start with Mr. Aboultaif.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Marsland, I have a question for you. Usually, during good economic times, the EI account claimed surpluses. What's the status now of the EI account? Is it out of money? Is it exhausted, yes or no? How much, if there are numbers that can be advised?

[Andrew Marsland]

With your permission, I'll turn that question over to my colleague Alison.

[Alison McDermott]

Actually, I think maybe Suzy could better speak to where we stand in terms of a government policy decision on the EI rate and the timing of any increases. I can certainly say that with the difficulties in getting the EI system to function, as most folks know, we have been using the CERB as a program to support all EI-eligible people who are needing those basic supports, and so the EI system, I think, has been relying on the CERB. I think over the longer run we will be keeping track of the costs of those expenditures, and to my understanding, the decision has not yet been made about when that will be recouped.

I don't know, Suzy, if you're able to say a bit more.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Do I understand that the EI account is exhausted now, yes or no?

[Alison McDermott]

It's not being used right now in the way that it normally would be, because normally when people would be unemployed they would go to the EI program and receive benefits from the account. Because of the fact that's been suspended in favour of providing those accounts through the CERB and because individuals are able to get that from either CRA or Service Canada, it's not a very good gauge right now of what's actually happening to the EI account.

Looking at the labour force survey would probably give us a better sense of how the economy is doing.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

On the CERB account, a lot of people who are ineligible are receiving payments. Why are some people who are ineligible receiving money? What is the mechanism to ensure that those who do not qualify do not receive money?

[Alison McDermott]

That's being done on an attestation basis right now, but certainly the Canada Revenue Agency, which is going to tax people on that benefit, may require proof from individuals in the future. It will be responsible for administering and enforcing the provisions of the CERB.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

How many businesses that applied for the $40,000 have received it? My understanding is that some of them have received a portion of that already. Some are waiting to see the remainder. Do you have any idea how many businesses have applied, and how much money has been committed to that specific program?

Mr. Marsland, maybe you can answer that.

[Alison McDermott]

Sorry—are you talking about the Canada emergency wage subsidy or the business account?

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

It's the business account.

[Alison McDermott]

That would be my colleague Leah Anderson or Soren Halverson.

[Leah Anderson]

The question was how many have applied for it?

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Yes.

[Leah Anderson]

There have been about 520,000 applicants to date, about $20 billion worth.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

That's 520,000 applicants for $40,000. Is that correct?

[Leah Anderson]

That's correct.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Okay. How much money have we spent so far? Is there any idea? Is there anyone who can tell us, on all the programs, how much money we have gone through?

[Leah Anderson]

For the small-business account alone, about $20 billion in funds has been disbursed to date.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

In total for CERB and other programs, how much money have we printed so far, to spend on all the programs so far?