Government Operations Committee on May 4th, 2020

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Is any spending, then, going through that hasn't gone through the Treasury Board oversight process of any of the announced COVID spending?

[Glenn Purves]

Well, if you take a step back, there has been an extraordinary amount of measures. When you look at what Canada—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

[Inaudible—Editor] that.

[Glenn Purves]

Well, it's in different categories. If you look at the Canada emergency response benefit and the Canada emergency wage subsidy, they have self-sustaining pieces of legislation, so as a consequence, a lot of the terms and conditions pertaining to those programs have already been approved in statutes, right?

If there's an augmentation to existing programming and it requires a consideration by TB, it has it. If it requires a consideration or a change in authorities that the minister has authority for, then they are reflected there.

I guess the point is that, despite the fact that we face an unprecedented period, the substantive roles of the TB minister and TBS have really not changed.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. What plans have you put in place for any added controls or new controls to oversee the spending?

[Glenn Purves]

In terms of overseeing the spending, in terms of consideration—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

New controls.

[Glenn Purves]

From the comptrollership standpoint, I know the comptroller general has been working closely with departments to ensure that in terms of reporting and how it's being teed up for public accounts—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I just have time for a very quick question.

With regard to Treasury Board, have you been in contact with the Auditor General for their subsequent role for the oversight?

[Glenn Purves]

As you know, under—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have about 10 or 15 seconds, Mr. Purves. That's all.

[Glenn Purves]

In the context of Governor General special warrants where a motion from March 13 requested it, absolutely.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Jowhari, for six minutes, please.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, department officials.

I'm going to pick up where my colleague Mr. McCauley left off and ask for bit more unpacking of that approval process.

As we all know, the Treasury Board of Canada is responsible for approving the terms and conditions for new transfer payments and new programs. Specifically, as of March 20, the Treasury Board's capacity for emerging spending, especially emergency spending.... For example, PSPC went from $15 million to $500 million.

Can I ask you, Mr. Purves, to unpack the whole approval process and shed some light on the fact that some of these policies and spending are evolving? We add $500 here, and a couple of days later we add another thousand for a specific group.

Do these require constant coming back and revisiting, approval, and all of that?

[Glenn Purves]

It's a mixed question for both us and Finance.

Alison, do you want me to start?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I was hoping you'd say that.

[Glenn Purves]

What I can say from our vantage point at Treasury Board.... Again, you have to remember that when we talk about spending authority—the ability to actually spend dollars—a lot of the legislation that has already been passed in Bills C-13, C-14 and C-15 provides for that authority. There is additional information—details and pieces of legislation—that also provides the policy and the program authorities pertaining to the actual spending of this funding.

In circumstances where an existing program or transfer payment is being augmented, or in any other context, Treasury Board looks at it from the standpoint of the policy, the program authorities and the operational authorities to make sure that if there's anything in their line of sight that they need to consider with respect to what has been put on the table in terms of the spending, they will take that into account. Treasury Board meetings take place in order to examine these issues and approve them, but only where needed and where there are gaps.

There are also considerations from many of these programs where ministers themselves have authorities to authorize and make adjustments. In those instances, the Treasury Board Secretariat works closely with the departmental community to ensure that it's done on a legal basis so that it reflects the legal mandate as set out.

Again, there are lots of programs and lots of initiatives that are being supported. The Treasury Board role is about ensuring that from a policy standpoint, from a program authority standpoint, it's to the code.

Alison, do you want to—?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Go ahead.

[Alison McDermott, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Hi. This is Alison McDermott from the Department of Finance.

I agree with everything you heard Glenn say and will add that, as he mentioned, that quite a bit of the authority for this funding under the emergency response plan is coming from the statutory authority, and that, of course, has all been approved by Parliament.

I'll just note, I think as Andrew did, that the Minister of Finance is presenting regularly to the finance committee on how the government is implementing these elements of the response plan. In fact, although I think we are required to report only on certain parts of that act, Bill C-13, we are reporting on all elements of the plan. It's something that we're going to continue to do.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I will switch and go to a very specific constituent-based question that was put to me.

We have about 5,000 small businesses in Richmond Hill. A lot of those small businesses are working with landlords to be able to secure their premises so they can do their business. From the feedback we are getting, a lot of landlords are not embracing the rent subsidy program being proposed by the government. Some of them don't have mortgages against that land, so they don't qualify.

How is that being taken care of? Are there any amendments or is any consideration being given to this that you could shed some light on?

Either Ms. McDermott or Mr. Marsland can comment.

[Leah Anderson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

I can take it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

If I may, Ms. Anderson, we only have about 20 seconds left. If you are unable to complete your full answer in 20 seconds, I suggest that you provide a written response through the clerk to our committee members.

I will give you 20 seconds, please.

[Leah Anderson]

We are continuing to flesh out the program design. We are hearing the comments made by folks. That opportunity will be available to property owners without mortgages; that's very clear in the mechanisms being designed so they can also apply as well to mortgage property owners.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Madame Vignola.

Ms. Vignola, you have six minutes.