Evidence of meeting #15 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pandemic.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
It's been well over a year now. Are there risks involved if we just continue without setting a budget and without setting a real fiscal anchor?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
That absence of a fiscal anchor and a budget are a risk of credibility for the fiscal anchor. There is also a risk of not having a clear framework for making decisions.
As one can easily imagine, the Minister of Finance, the Prime Minister and ministers are probably subjected to intense pressure from all kinds of groups to spend in various areas. The absence of a fiscal anchor makes it a bit more difficult for them to triage and determine where they should be investing or spending money and where they should be turning down proposals.
The absence of a budget also makes it more difficult to have a clear picture as to the overall sense of direction for the government, notably when it comes to the pace of implementing its policy priorities and, in the current case, its Speech from the Throne priorities and mandate letter priorities.
The absence of a budget prevents us from having a clear, cohesive picture of overall government direction when it comes to its policy priorities and the pace of implementation.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
In the same vein, what do you think, as PBO, when you see we have $100 billion we're going to spend to jump-start the economy but we're not setting any guardrails around it and not saying what the money is going to be used for or focused on?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I am thinking to myself, I wouldn't want to be the Minister of Finance because, as I said before, her phone must be ringing off the hook.
When you provide that perspective of $100 billion to be spent over the next three years but you don't circumscribe it or you don't put constraints around it, at least not publicly, it gives a sense that—and we are welcoming proposals—we don't have a clear idea yet of what we will do, or if we do, we're open to considering other ideas.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
We heard earlier today Mr. Green talking about some of the wage subsidies support. The government has listed the names of the companies but not the amounts. Now, we've also heard that the communist-controlled Bank of China, or whatever their bank was here, received subsidies. Foreign-controlled airlines received subsidies. Should CRA be releasing the information for transparency for parliamentarians and taxpayers to see how much has been received by the companies for these subsidies?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
That's very close in its design or its nature to a subsidy. In the case of subsidies, my understanding is that the amounts of subsidies that corporations and businesses receive tend to be public, generally speaking. In the case of the wage subsidy, there could be competitiveness issues in some instances, but generally speaking, I think the amounts that corporations have received should indeed be public.
Now that the government is disclosing who receives them, the competitive disadvantage, if there was one, has probably been eroded already. Disclosing the amounts would be more transparent.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I think as well it would take away some of the tomfoolery. We've seen very large corporations with subsidiaries receiving them even though the corporation may be fabulously successful at the same time.
Thank you very much for your time.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
A point of order, Mr. Chair.
We haven't had any translation for five minutes.
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Paul Cardegna
Mr. Chair, if you can just give me a moment, I'm checking with our technical people now. Thank you.
Conservative
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen
Okay. We'll wait until the clerk comes back just to make certain it's all been organized. Just bear with us, if you don't mind.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I'll practise my English for five minutes.
The Clerk
My understanding now, Mr. Chair, is that the situation has been resolved and you can continue.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen
Thank you, Mr. Clerk.
Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have five minutes.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Many of the questions I have were asked and answered during this round.
In the recovery, we've heard that it's a K-shaped recovery, and some sectors, for example, have recovered more quickly. Some have actually thrived. Some obviously are finding it more challenging.
Vulnerable Canadians have really struggled and have borne the brunt of the lockdowns and the pandemic.
I wanted to ask you whether in anything you've gathered, looking at labour market participation or whatnot, you have numbers or data that substantiate that argument that there is an unequal or a K-shaped recovery when it comes to the pandemic and the recovery.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Thank you.
We have looked not only at the most affected sectors, but also at employment and output across various sectors, and we find that, indeed—and without any big surprise—some sectors are faring way worse than others, notably hospitality and food services. They're not doing very well. The travel industry is suffering and that's very obvious to anybody who wanted to go anywhere for the last several months.
Other sectors are doing relatively well. Financial services are doing relatively well. The public sector is doing well. The health sector is doing relatively well. If you're in the supermarket business, chances are you're not suffering too much, even though there are additional expenses.
There is indeed a recovery that's at a different pace depending on which sectors you're working in or investing in. We find evidence of that and I think we have reported that in at least one chart in our economic outlook published at the end of September, if I'm not mistaken.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Do you have the granular sort of information that would allow you to indicate that, in addition to identifying which sectors or which populations are obviously the most challenged and are suffering the most?
Do you have information on whether the funding is actually reaching those sectors or those Canadians who are in vulnerable populations and struggling the most? Are you able to sort of provide a picture of whether the funding is actually reaching those most vulnerable populations and sectors?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
That's something we probably would be able to address in writing. We have some data—incomplete data—on recipients of the CERB by income group. I'm not certain if we have that by sector as well. I think a written answer would probably be the best way forward on that interesting question.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
That is interesting. Has that information been published before?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I know Statistics Canada has provided a wealth of information on sectors affected, on groups by age and so on. I'm sure they have more information than I have.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
That's terrific. I very much look forward to hearing from you after this in writing.
I have a general question. What kind of financial reporting on federal government spending related to COVID would be the most useful for parliamentarians?
I'm sure that you look at what other countries have put out there or best practices from other jurisdictions. Are there tools that you feel would be really helpful to parliamentarians that you've seen in other jurisdictions or other areas but that might not be instituted here?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
A comprehensive report that includes all the measures that were announced and implemented, their expected cost and the expenditures to date would be a useful tool. I'm not aware of which countries do that. I know some do that. A comprehensive list would be helpful.
The fall economic statement had a bit of that, but it was also intertwined with new initiatives. Tables at the end of each chapter were useful in that they provided a good summary of each of the measures and their cost, but as I said, it also included other new measures. In that sense, it's a bit more difficult to navigate through and find the information as to how much the government anticipated spending on something and indeed has spent so far, or in total.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen
Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk and Mr. Giroux.
We're now into the third and final round.
Mr. Paul-Hus, you have five minutes.