Government Operations Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2021

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Okay. That's helpful.

With regard to one of the other points you brought up, in addition to set-asides and transparency in government contracting, what capacity-building measures, over and above the navigator program, would you suggest to help assist indigenous-owned businesses get better involved in government procurement and contracting?

[Tabatha Bull]

I think there's definitely a need for closing the loop on procurement. Even with some of the procurement we saw specifically with PPE, indigenous businesses were not eligible for or were not able to obtain the contract. When they asked to have a debrief to understand why, the answer was that it was a closed competitive procurement, and the way that procurement was set up did not allow for a debrief. So you have a number of indigenous businesses that may have specifically pivoted to provide PPE, and have now invested in being able to provide that, that do not have the opportunity to understand why their bid was not accepted.

I think the other opportunity is that those contracts that are under $25,000, that do not have to go through an RFP process, often go to the same businesses that you would normally use. We need to be able to grow the networks and connect through capacity building to indigenous businesses so that they can start to access those other opportunities as well. We have had some great opportunity with the office of small and medium enterprise to conduct webinars for indigenous businesses to understand how best to do business with the government.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

You mentioned that predominantly indigenous-owned businesses are smaller and medium-sized organizations. Do you find that is similar for non-indigenous-owned businesses, or if there's a particularly disproportionate impact for indigenous-owned businesses?

[Tabatha Bull]

I have not spoken to my colleagues at the Black Chamber or WEOC specifically about this. I think one thing that we do definitely find for indigenous businesses is that quite often they're funnelled towards one ministry whereas women-owned businesses are not necessarily funnelled to the Ministry of Gender and Equality. There's a government-wide solution and there are government-wide programs for them. For indigenous-owned businesses there definitely seems to be a funnel towards Indigenous Services Canada while it really needs to be a government-wide approach.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Bull and Mr. Weiler.

We'll now go to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It is agreed that the COVID-19 Supply Council has played an advisory role. My understanding from the interventions of Mr. McHattie and Ms. Bull is that one piece of advice was to increase local manufacturing production.

As a result of the council's recommendations, have you noticed an increase in manufacturing capacity in Canada? Has your advice been taken into account?

Concretely, do you see positive and tangible effects from the meetings you've attended that have taken up valuable time during this pandemic period?

[David McHattie]

I see progress and would look at it as an investment. At the same time, I think there were many other initiatives ongoing, such as the Industry Strategy Council. There were many things that might seem like separate departments, separate topics, but we had conversations at many levels regarding how we could have better and more sustainable domestic supply. The reasons to do it are very important and it's really important that Canadians also ask for this. We can't always look to our governments to solve our problems. We as Canadians have to turn around and choose, where we can, from things that are more local. I've heard messages from provinces and from the federal government. I think it's a step in the right direction, but we have a long way to go. I think one thing we should be proud of as Canadians is that we are a very diverse society and we have an opportunity to provide something that many other countries can't. Hearing Ms. Bull's feedback was also an opportunity for me to hear other perspectives. I found high value in the conversations and appreciated them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. McHattie.

We have only five seconds left.

Ms. Vignola, do you have a quick five-second question?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us. I'll resume my questions later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McHattie, I've heard anecdotal feedback from some temporary workers in my area who have actually reported instances of their sole job being to repackage PPE from China with labels that say “made in Canada”. Are you aware of any instances of dumping of Chinese PPE into the marketplace repackaged as Canadian?

[David McHattie]

I'm not personally aware of any, but if there are any, I hope there's a phone number for somebody to call and that that practice would be eliminated immediately.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You may be aware that in some of our early procurement we procured something like 11 million N-95s, nine million of which had to go back because they hadn't actually been properly tested. What would be some of the other challenges, from your perspective as a local domestic manufacturer, with regard to potential international dumping within our markets?

[David McHattie]

At least in my experience—and I'm speaking of the products that Tenaris makes, which are steel pipes for Canada's energy sector—we do see unfair trade, and we utilize the Canadian International Trade Tribunal and the Canada Border Services Agency. There's a specific process that we follow.

While we believe that Canada has a very strong trade remedy regime, it can always be improved because, in my view, those who are seeking to cheat the system will continue to evolve and cheat the system.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

My last question is pertaining to some of my earlier questions for Ms. Bull.

Do you also support the set-aside program? Would you support a set-aside program on a move-forward basis for aboriginal procurement as it relates to these existing government programs?

[Tabatha Bull]

Yes. I definitely support the federal—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry. Actually, Ms. Bull, the question was for Mr. McHattie, from the manufacturing perspective. We're looking for some allyship here on the committee.

[David McHattie]

Without a doubt, this is something that we support. The Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters association has a manufacturing of the future council, and the workforce of the future.... Our interest is in creating diverse streams of employment and bringing under-represented people into our manufacturing sectors. We think that's going to make us stronger, not only by having them being there, but also for the ideas and the skills they will contribute. Anything we can do to incentivize this and procurement opportunities for our indigenous businesses of equity is something that Canada's manufacturers are 100% behind.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

That's your time—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It sounds like there's no excuse for us not to go in that direction.

Thank you, Mr. McHattie.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for letting me finish.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Ms. Harder, we're back to you for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McHattie, I can appreciate your mention that between meetings you could send a note. I understand that is one form of communication; however, in your comments, you also said that you found the conversations very insightful or very helpful, which tells me that there's a lot to be gained when people are brought together, when they are at the same table and collaborating in the same room at the same time.

I would gather from your comments, then, that actually a lot was missed when meetings weren't called for long periods of time. Again, there was a long period of time of three weeks in May, then another long period of time from the end of May to the end of June, and then there was another six-month period from the end of June to December. That's a lot of waiting time between meetings and a lot of opportunities that are missed, to go to your point that conversations can be had that are incredibly insightful and altogether helpful, not only for you as industry leaders, but of course for the minister as well.

It's interesting to me that the council was formed and was supposed to be a place where there's a meeting of the minds. It brings people together to where they are able to put forward different ideas and engage and perhaps even debate in lively discussion for the sake of coming up with new and innovative ideas.

It's confounding to me, then, why the minister wouldn't call a meeting more regularly, especially at the beginning of the pandemic when things were being figured out. Wouldn't you agree with me that holding a meeting where people can collaborate is important?

[David McHattie]

I don't disagree with you. Looking back, I think it would have been great to have some meetings between June and now. Although there were other vehicles to do so, more conversations are better. The pandemic might be something that we have today, but there are structural things we can resolve for the future so that we can have a stronger and more vibrant economy and have somewhere where Canadians can be proud of their manufacturing sector, for example, and choose manufacturing from Canada more frequently than they do today.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I can appreciate that, Mr. McHattie, because to your point as well, we want people at the table who have the experience, the ingenuity, the work ethic and the ability to solve problems and put forward creative solutions. I think this council originally started out at that place when the minister chose 16 incredibly well-credentialed individuals who should be at that table. It is confounding to me why those voices weren't utilized to the extent that they could have been.

One of the things I have observed from the conversation today, Ms. Bull, is that you mentioned that there were four scheduled meetings, when you look back at your notes, but when we go online, we see evidence of only three. Do you know why we wouldn't have evidence of a fourth meeting and why minutes wouldn't be reported out to the public?