Government Operations Committee on March 10th, 2021

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have a question I'll pose to Mr. Ermuth.

Does this data already exist?

We hear Mr. MacKinnon go on that this would grind the government to a halt and stop vaccine procurements and everything if this information were made available. I believe it is already existing. Can you confirm that for us and easily share it?

[Roger Ermuth]

Mr. Chair, we've had ongoing discussions with departments around gathering information in terms of this, and these will be the types of questions that have come up.

On some of the work we have done and the approach we have taken, with my colleague, Mr. Purves, in terms of looking at the measures, the focus has been on looking at measures up until this point, but messages have gone out to departments saying in anticipation of transparency and questions from Canadians and parliamentarians that there would be at some point a request to bring this information in. In terms of gathering, collating, it's doable. Some of the information will be readily available. The question is to what extent it will be consistent across departments.

Again, anything is possible. If the committee is asking us, the question is going to be the timing and the extent to which we can live up to the depth of the request at a specific time. As we get closer to year-end reporting, I will present at public accounts, so we do have some of this information, which will come in more detail at that point, but again it becomes what the committee tasks us to do and what we can do.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

In my understanding you have all of this because it was brought up a year ago in your CFO meeting.

[Roger Ermuth]

We have all of which...? I'm sorry.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You have all of the information, the spending information, that I'm asking for.

[Roger Ermuth]

Again, the question really becomes to what extent and what is specifically....

Mr. Chair, there was a question, I believe it was question 172, where some of this information came out, so absolutely there is some detailed information related to that. Departments are, or should be, tracking the expenditures related to measures and some of those things.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Perfect, so we have the information already.

[Roger Ermuth]

The hard part is going to be, again, some of the roll-up stuff. The question is really to what extent and to what level of the specifics is that request and the amount of time to pull that together.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For me, the fundamental question is this: What is Mr. McCauley not getting under the current system. We're seeing reports published on a regular basis and the information is contained therein. In addition to that, it provides the folks gathering the information the opportunity to make sure that the information is sound.

Something that's important to keep in mind is the quality of the information that's contained in those regular reports, which provides us an opportunity to make good policy and good judgments because we know that the information has been checked and double-checked and due diligence has been carried out. Again, the fundamental question I have that Mr. McCauley hasn't answered is what he is not getting from the current—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What I'm not getting is what you're trying to hide and why you're trying to filibuster public spending.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. McCauley, please....

Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have the floor.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'll yield the floor, because again, I'm looking for that answer. I haven't seen it.

Just to reiterate what Mr. MacKinnon had stated, we have hard-working officials here who are focused on the task at hand. We have an enormous challenge here that we're dealing with during the pandemic under incredibly stressful situations.

You haven't made the case that this is something that is absolutely necessary, and that's what I'm looking for.

Again, I'm open to your ideas, as always, but I'm looking for you to make the case that changing the normal course of reporting is required because you're not getting what you're looking for. That's the case that I need made.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk. I believe you were asking that question for Mr. McCauley to possibly answer.

Mr. McCauley, do you have an answer?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It's very clear that my colleagues across the way are just trying to filibuster or block. We've heard from Mr. Ermuth that most of this information already exists. I know it's getting reported monthly already from the CFOs. It is very little work to collate it and publish it to this committee. Our oversight is spending. Our oversight is expenditures on behalf of the taxpayers. Simply getting access to planned spending or authorized spending is not adequate.

I'm ready to put it to a vote. If my colleagues around the table agree, then I think we should move on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

I see one more hand up.

Ms. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In short, I gather that Mr. McCauley wants to receive monthly reports, Mr. Ermuth says that we have some of the information and Mr. Fergus says that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts also receives the information and that the information already exists.

However, a timing issue may need to be considered. March 17 is next week. I gather that the information exists, but that it must be shared between committees.

Is that right?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Yes, I believe so.

I see no other hands up. Is there consent to adopt this motion? If it's not unanimous, I will call on the clerk to conduct a vote.

First off, is there unanimous consent to approve this?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.

Mr. Clerk.

[The Clerk]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For the benefit of all members, I just want to make sure that I have the correct text of the motion that Mr. McCauley read. I would like to reread it to ensure that it is correct.

Mr. McCauley, if you can please confirm, the text I have is this:

That, in the context of its study of the Supplementary Estimates (C) 2020-21, the committee send for, from the Treasury Board Secretariat, all monthly COVID-19 expenditures reports and COVID-19 spending data as disclosed by the chief financial officers of all respective departments and that these documents be provided to the committee no later than Wednesday, March 17, 2021, and then update this committee on a monthly basis by the 15th of the month.

Is that correct?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Yes.

[The Clerk]

Mr. Chair, it is a tie vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

We have a tie and I vote yes.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

Thank you.

As we move forward, I want to thank the witnesses for bearing with us as we go through this.

I see we still have one more person to ask questions in this round.

Mr. MacKinnon, you have five minutes.

As we look at the time, for clarification—and we thank the witnesses and the interpreters for being here—we will finish after Mr. MacKinnon's five minutes.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not speaking for any public servants, but this motion that just passed, with a deadline of seven days hence for information that requires double, triple and quadruple checking and translation, is not only dilatory but borderline abusive. I want to apologize on behalf of, certainly, the members of my party on this committee to all public servants who are going to have to work 24-7 to provide that information. This is an appalling order that we've just imposed on public servants when we have financial transparency instruments already in place. I can't imagine anything, frankly, more dilatory or abusive towards public servants.

That having been said, I want to thank our friends from the Treasury Board Secretariat for being here today.

I know that you worked together on developing the white paper on official languages. However, I don't know which of you can answer this question.

Can you describe the Treasury Board Secretariat's involvement in the development of the official languages plan and white paper?