Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Evans and Ms. Vignola.

The committee would appreciate it if both PHAC and PSPC could submit answers in writing to some of those questions, as you have indicated. If you could submit those to the committee through the clerk, we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

We will go to Mr. Green for six minutes, please.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Members of this committee, and to the witnesses who are here today, I want to thank you for this opportunity to revisit this conversation. You'll know and recall that in multiple meetings I've brought up the urgency around the national emergency strategic stockpile.

[Technical difficulty—Editor] through you, Mr. Chair. When we moved the motion at this committee to receive documents, we did so with the parameters that they would only be redacted in accordance with the principles as laid out in the motion.

First, did anybody within the national emergency strategic stockpile department responsible, PHAC and others, have any role in redacting the documents that we received?

[Cindy Evans]

With respect to any document production, be that through access to information or other requests, including parliamentary motions, staff who are providing documents would make recommendations for redactions in line with the principles that we would see as well through the access to information eligible redactions, including things with respect to national security, with respect to information given in confidence—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Is it your opinion that out of the hundreds, almost thousands, of papers that we went back to, trying to search for answers in the national emergency strategic stockpile plan, most of the contracts and the information that would lead to the decisions of the closures of those national warehouses would be of national security...and that's why they were redacted?

[Cindy Evans]

Certainly I can't speak to the specific dates and inclusions with the most recent document requirement from Parliament as to what specifically was or was not redacted.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

May I just put this to you in a very clear way today, on the record, Ms. Evans. I know your predecessor was before this committee, and I didn't have much luck getting answers there, so I'll try again today.

We only heard about the closure of the warehouse in Saskatchewan through the media, because of somebody who didn't get a contract. They went down and took photos. Millions of critical PPE were discarded and the system was contracted from nine warehouses down to six, I believe, so we never really had information back about the other locations. The government was forthcoming once they were caught on the Saskatchewan warehouse.

How many items of critical PPE were also discarded in the other warehouses, based on the program's inability to effectively deal with the expiry dates?

[Cindy Evans]

I believe, again going back to the discussions that happened at this committee in May, what we have already shared with the committee is that, in 2018, expired items such as gloves, face shields, bandages and survival biscuits were disposed of. In 2019, approximately two million expired masks and 440,000 expired gloves—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That was just in Regina, respectfully.

I don't want to beat around the bush. I want to be clear. Again, this is not on you, Ms. Evans. This is maybe going hard on the problem. It's not a personal thing, so forgive my tone if I come off sharp, but you haven't disclosed.... We know it was two million in Regina.

Am I to then extrapolate that it could also be assumed that in the other two locations that were closed there were also two million critical PPE, N95 masks, that would have been thrown away as well?

[Cindy Evans]

What I can say is that when a warehouse is closed the material that is of use is transferred to the other warehouses and any expired material would be disposed of—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Evans, I'm sorry but that's not answering the question. You would know this number. You had nine warehouses. You reduced them to six. In one warehouse alone you threw away two million N95 masks in garbage bins. On March 18, there are documents and emails from your department that talk about facing the real crunch: “We have received urgent requests from Nunavut, NWT, NFLD, BC”, and they were all asking for N95s. It says, “The requests, particularly for N95, far exceed our stockpile.”

I'll ask you the question again. In one warehouse, you threw away two million N95 masks. How many masks did your department throw away for the other two warehouses, or all of the warehouses based on the expiry of these items?

[Cindy Evans]

Again, I will reiterate that any masks that were determined to be acceptable would have been transferred to another warehouse. I will say the masks from the Regina site were 10 years old and five years past their expiry date.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This is what I have, Ms. Evans, from the request that I put forward. You will see that document is blacked out. This is about the current NESS stocks for the PPE. We started off in procurement by throwing away masks in 2019. We know one location threw away two million masks. Is it that you have the information and you're unwilling to give it, or you don't know?

[Cindy Evans]

Certainly the information appropriate to be disclosed would have been provided in the document production. Certainly I can't speak to an individual document and the specific redactions or the rationale behind that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Evans, and thank you, Mr. Green.

We will now go to the second round, starting with Ms. Harder for five minutes, please.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Just a few months before COVID-19 hit, the government effectively shut down Canada's pandemic warning system. This is a system, of course, that had established itself during the SARS outbreak in 2003 or just after as a frontline defence against pandemics. It was known for its capabilities and it was praised for them. As an intelligence unit, one of the warning system's key functions was to help inform Canada's risk assessment for an outbreak, which helps the government decide how quickly to respond and what measures are needed going forward.

For much of January, February and March, the Liberals maintained that the virus posed a “low threat to Canada” even as COVID-19 was spreading aggressively around the world. Even when the World Health Organization changed its rating to high at the end of January and warned other countries to prepare, Canada maintained a low risk and did nothing.

Had Canada's pandemic warning system been fully operational, do you feel that the government would have heightened the threat level of the pandemic at an earlier date and, therefore, increased safety measures such as closing the border?

[Cindy Evans]

Thank you for the question, and I'd really like the opportunity to set the record straight. The global public health intelligence network was never shut down. The number of alerts did decrease over the past number of years. However, GPHIN continued to operate without reductions in that time.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm sorry. I'll just pause right there, just so we have a clear understanding. You're saying that the system, the warning system, has stayed in full effect the whole time?

[Cindy Evans]

What I'd like to do is give some context—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

It just takes a yes or no actually. It's just simply a yes or no.

[Cindy Evans]

The system was not shut down, if I might answer the question—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

It was fully functional.

[Cindy Evans]

Mr. Chair, may I answer the question in my own words?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I would ask you to answer the question.

[Cindy Evans]

There are three components to the global information system. There's a GPHIN daily report. There are GPHIN alerts, and there's a GPHIN platform. The GPHIN program at no point was shut down, and what I would like to say is—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Were the GPHIN alerts shut down?