Government Operations Committee on April 14th, 2021

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

That's right: 44 million of Moderna and 40 million of Pfizer.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I know that we have talked about pricing. I have seen it reported that Moderna and Pfizer are sitting on close to $23 billion in profit globally and have actually assured their shareholders that they're going to raise the prices in the coming months. This is going to make a bad problem worse.

I'm wondering what your strategy is for price fluctuation, and whether our contracts locked in at the originally negotiated price.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for the question.

We have procured the 84 million doses from those two suppliers based on the original price that was offered, so regardless of the prices going forward, those prices that we had in our original contracts are the ones that applied to our procurements.

I will ask the deputy minister if he has anything to add.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's okay. I will accept that on the record.

I know that I'm to assume that in this privatized market, this commodified market of life-saving vaccines, big pharma companies like Moderna and Pfizer are ultimately making the decision on where vaccines go. We see this in the global trends: wealthy countries that have the money by nature get prioritized. I think you and I have had exchanges on prioritization in the past.

I'm wondering if that continues to be the case, or is there a scenario in place, based on the purchases versus options scenario that you and I exchanged quite a bit on, whereby if Moderna and Pfizer decide to jack up the prices, we might expect delays on our lower-cost-per-unit contracts in favour of a higher commodified and urgent deal somewhere else?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thanks for the question.

I can't speak for the companies themselves in terms of what their motivations or incentives are going to be, but I can speak to our relationships right now and the delivery schedules right now. Our deliveries are stable. They are solid.

We will continue to receive doses from both Moderna and Pfizer. Going forward, we expect 17.8 million doses of Pfizer before the end of June and 12.3 million doses of Moderna before the end of June, and those supply chains and relationships are very stable.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I know you have touted it as the largest portfolio in the world. We're essentially procuring probably 10 times our population number with regard to the actual need and the supply, yet when we try to get down to what the costs are, back in March Mr. Matthews suggested that he didn't think it was appropriate that he offer up the average price at that time.

When will PSPC divulge the costs per unit for the vaccine contracts?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Of course, we are making all of these procurements on behalf of the Public Health Agency of Canada. Our procurements are really in support of their efforts to make sure that Canadians have the life-saving equipment and vaccines that they need.

I believe that Treasury Board has already indicated that the total envelope of funds for vaccines is about $8 billion. In terms of the individual prices per unit, we are working with the companies in terms of what they are comfortable in disclosing, but at the current time those negotiations are ongoing.

I want to be clear that I respect and believe strongly in accountability and transparency, but at the same time I want to make sure that our relationships with our vaccine suppliers are not undermined so that Canada can continue to get vaccines into this country. Those are the two items I'm balancing.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I appreciate the delicate balance you have before you. Assuming that everything goes as planned and you are able to procure 10 times, potentially, what our population needs, you stated that extra doses would be shared with the developing world. Then there was a bit of a retraction, a clarification that these decisions are made across various departments. You will recall that I asked you about the TRIPS waiver. You made the assertion that it's not a part of the actual supply chain. I still tend to disagree, by way.

What I'm wondering, given that these vaccines have a short life and that some of them need to be stored, is whether Canada will be sharing extra doses with the developing world and how we will select which countries are to receive these surplus vaccines.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We will share doses with the developing world. We will donate doses to the developing world, and we are having a conversation across government to determine how that process will occur.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Will Canada still receive the two million doses of AstraZeneca through COVAX?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Through COVAX we will receive approximately 1.9 million doses of AstraZeneca. About 300,000 doses have arrived to date.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

We're still taking from COVAX, while acknowledging the surplus procurement supply that you've been touting?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The contribution to COVAX is to support the efforts to ensure the developing world has access to vaccines—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Is Canada part of the developing world?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

We'll now go to Ms. Harder for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, you said that we're in the top three of the G7. I would present to you that perhaps that's because your government made the decision to delay the second dose that individuals receive to four months instead of three to four weeks, as is recommended. In fact, Canada's chief science adviser has said that the decision to delay second doses has amounted to a population-level experiment.

You've been warned numerous times that individuals should have their second dose within that three- to four-week window, yet your government has determined that they're going to wait for four months. They've done so in order to create a brag point for themselves so that they can say x number of Canadians have received their first dose. Of course, that number looks significantly larger than what is actually the case in terms of protection being offered to Canadians.

Why is your government experimenting with the lives of Canadians?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you so much for the question.

I'd like to offer two clarifications. First, I mentioned that Canada is third in the G20 in terms of the percentage of people who have had at least one dose.

Second, the decisions that you reference are not federal decisions but provincial decisions. We, as a federal government, are not making that decision; the provincial jurisdictions are making their own decisions about the dosing regimen.

Thank you.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

With all due respect, though, that recommendation is coming down from the federal government. It's not being made at the provincial level, as you're ascribing it to be made.

When it comes to procuring the vaccines, as you know, an article that just came out has reported that we are now outpacing the United States of America in terms of people who are being diagnosed with COVID-19. The Premier of Ontario confirmed that 10,000 vaccine appointments had to be cancelled due to a lack of supply this week. I think we can all agree, then, that there's a bit of a problem here in terms of the procurement and then in terms of getting those vaccines down to the provinces.

Are you concerned by this situation?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

To clarify, I want to suggest that this dosing regimen you referred to, prior to moving on to your next question, is not a federal government decision. It is a provincial and territorial decision.

Moving on to your next question, I want to clarify that my role as procurement minister is to ensure doses get into this country. As a matter of fact, I can assure you that 12 million doses have been delivered to the provinces as of today, and 8.8 million doses have been administered. There is a spread there, and that spread is, hopefully, going to be continued to be administered so that everyone in the provinces can have access to vaccines that are currently in storage.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Minister, I can appreciate that—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Ms. Harder, I'm sorry for interrupting.

I apologize for stopping you for a second. Our interpreters are hearing a spiking sound from your mike. Can you move your microphone up just a bit, right about there...? Let's see if that works.

Thank you. That's perfect. I'm sorry about that.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

It's no problem at all.

I guess my next question here, then, is that with the blunders in terms of procurement, I can appreciate that you're catching up. However, my concern is that with numerous delays, it's possible that there will be this eventual dump of an extraordinarily large number of vaccines that land in this country and that then, as a result, land in provinces.

I'm just wondering: Are you doing anything in order to prepare for that inevitable fate?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Well, I do regret your use of the word “blunder”, because of course I don't see it that way.

I see Canada—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm sorry, Minister. I'm just going to clarify.

On the consistent delay in vaccines coming to Canada, you're saying that's not a blunder? You're okay with that? You're doing well?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Could you specify what you mean by “consistent delay”? We've had record numbers of vaccines coming into this country, more than expected. We had 3.5 million more vaccines than expected in Q1, and we'll have 44 million here by the end of Q2. Could you—