Government Operations Committee on April 14th, 2021

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Have there been any preliminary conversations about a government—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

We'll now go to Ms. Harder for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Prime Minister confirmed today, and I quote, that there have been a few delays here and there.

This is contrary to what the minister just said. She was trying to claim that we're very much ahead of schedule and everything is hunky-dory. It's all good to go.

Based on what the Prime Minister has said—that there have indeed been a few delays here and there—I'm wondering what your department is doing in order to make sure that we are adequately prepared should there be a large surge of the number of vaccines that are received all at once.

[Bill Matthews]

There are a couple of points to make here.

I think I would distinguish between targets and “delays here and there”. Targets we very much talk about quarterly. With regard to delays, we have seen delays of a few days come through with Moderna shipments, and that certainly doesn't impact a quarterly target, but what's important for provinces here is that they have a sense of what's coming in the next six to eight weeks so they can properly plan.

I think, as was mentioned, you will see increased doses delivered. Pfizer is a good example. We'll be going to two million a week in June. Provinces know that and can plan for it. There won't be a giant dump of vaccines all in one day. We have to give provinces notice so that they can properly plan, but all the industries here are scaling up, so you are going to see a very steady increase in terms of doses delivered per week.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

On March 24 the minister of PSPC told the committee that if Canada had extra doses—and she confirmed this again today—those doses would then be shared with the developing world. I'm wondering what processes or mechanisms are being put in place to make sure those vaccines are adequately stored and then shipped to the countries where they need to go.

[Bill Matthews]

There are two points here, Mr. Chair.

Number one, in terms of the processes to determine where they go and when, that's more for other ministries to weigh in on—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Why would that be for other ministries?

[Bill Matthews]

PSPC is procuring them and bringing them into the country, but in terms of where they go, it's more of a Global Affairs, international trade type of—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Once they get here, though, it is PSPC that's responsible for making sure that they're properly stored. Is that correct?

[Bill Matthews]

That's part two of my response. Yes, absolutely. In the contract we have in place with FedEx and Innomar, part of that contract—and indeed the reason for their expertise—is the proper storage of the vaccines, because they all have unique storage requirements. PSPC does indeed have a role there through our contractor.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Matthews, on March 24, when you were here before the committee you said, and I'll quote:

I'll just add this.

Canada's vaccine portfolio is seven different vaccines, and they're very different. They are across three different technologies, so the prices vary depending on the type of vaccine and the number of vaccine doses you buy.

I don't think it's appropriate for me to offer up an average price at this time.

Mr. Matthews, I'm asking you again, is now an appropriate time? Would you be able to offer the average price of a vaccine?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, no, I'm not in a position to do that just yet. It relates to both current relationships with the suppliers and to ongoing negotiations. I just don't feel it would be appropriate for me to share that information with a risk of influencing those negotiations.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Chair, through you, there are ongoing negotiations, yet contracts are already signed and everything is good to go. This doesn't add up for me. Why are there ongoing negotiations if we already have the world's best portfolio?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, I can't predict the future here, but there's an open question on what the durability of vaccines is. Contracts are absolutely lined up for the current year in what I'll call “round one” of vaccines, but I think to properly plan, one has to be ready for the potential that vaccination becomes a multi-year type of endeavour.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

You talked about properly planning, and I'm so glad you did, because I'm wondering what the department is doing in terms of booster vaccinations and looking into that. I certainly know other countries are going in that direction. They're already starting their procurement process.

Canada obviously was very much behind the curve in terms of our procurement of the vaccinations that we're accessing now. Are there steps being taken to make sure that we have access to the boosters as needed?

[Bill Matthews]

There are a couple of points here, Mr. Chair.

First and foremost, Canada was one of the first countries, or early countries, to get contracts in place with Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson. Experience with others was different, so I'm not sure what the basis for that is.

In terms of booster procurement, we're absolutely in ongoing discussions with all of the suppliers to find out what their future plans are—whether it's a new and different vaccine or a booster to their existing vaccine. Those discussions are indeed under way.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

There were conversations taking place with vaccine companies starting in March and April of last year. The only place that Canada went was to a Chinese-based company, and then of course that fell through the floor.

Then contracts weren't actually picked up again until late summer, so it's actually misleading to say to this committee and to the general Canadian public that this was something that we were already on top of and that everything was running smoothly all summer long. It's totally inappropriate to say that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Harder.

We'll now go to Mr. Drouin for five minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've listened to a few of my colleagues whom I really appreciate, and I know that when the cameras are off they're the best in the world and they're collegial. I just hope that in the future, when witnesses come before us, we think of one thing, and one test that I have, since Mother's Day is coming, is if you would talk to your mother the way certain members are talking to our current witnesses. The answer is probably no.

I hope that in the future we can learn that and just think about our mothers. That's the test I use to ask questions and stay polite to our witnesses.

That said, Mr. Matthews, thank you for coming before our committee, along with the staff before us.

I want to touch base on a question that was raised by my colleague Mr. McCauley. Just so we are clear, the Government of Canada signed a contract for the number of doses and not the number of vials. Whether there are 10 doses in a vial or five doses in a vial, it doesn't matter. Is that correct?

[Bill Matthews]

Absolutely correct, Mr. Chair. It is based on the number of doses delivered, and those doses are counted based on the regulatory approval given by Health Canada. Indeed, there was a change in terms of Pfizer, and that change was made on a go-forward basis only.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Then is PSPC not the body that decides how many doses to extract from a vial? Would Health Canada be the body that would make that decision and change the label on how many extractions can be made from that particular vial, obviously along with the company?

[Bill Matthews]

Yes, Mr. Chair. I'm a little out of my depth here, but the company would have to apply for that type of regulatory change and the Health Canada regulator would then make an assessment and take a decision, both in terms of yes or no, and then when the effective date would be.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I know that in order to extract more doses per vial, we needed a special type of syringe. When did PSPC start negotiating that particular contract to get those low dead-volume syringes?

[Bill Matthews]

I will turn to my colleagues here, Arianne and Michael, in a moment, but I think those negotiations or discussions started in advance, but not too far in advance, and one of the things we wanted to do, just as with the vaccine portfolio itself, was to get some diversification, because these syringes were obviously in high demand across the globe, so you didn't want to be reliant on just one supplier. We now have supplies coming from a number of sources.

Arianne or Michael, do you want to touch on when we started negotiations? I must admit it feels like a distant memory.

[Michael Mills]

We started negotiations in early February.