Government Operations Committee on April 26th, 2021

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I understand the need to get the program out and running fast, which they did, but again it has been.... I think it was April 11 when they changed the CEWS to 75%. Could they not have made some of these proposed changes in June or July?

When I look at the code 699, which is the paid leave for the public service, CRA dropped from 36,000 people off work to 200 people off work in July. According to CRA, all of their 45,000 workers except for 200 were back at work. Could they not have made these changes in July to protect against such a risk?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley. That's a great question.

Ms. Hogan, if you maybe can provide an answer to the committee on that, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm just trying to respect your time. I'd appreciate it if you would.

We'll now to go Mr. Kusmierczyk for five minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The IMF, in its March 2021 report, concluded or stated, “Decisive actions and unprecedented fiscal support” helped Canada “to avert an even sharper fall in output”.

Ms. Hogan, would you say that the wage subsidy succeeded in getting support quickly to workers and to businesses?

[Karen Hogan]

We found in our audit that the Canada Revenue Agency and the Department of Finance worked in very tight timelines to design and implement the wage subsidy, which was something that has never been done in Canada before.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Is that a yes? It did get that support quickly to workers...?

[Karen Hogan]

They rolled out the subsidy absolutely very quickly, and it's an indirect support to workers through their employer. The objective was really to maintain that employer-employee relationship and to encourage businesses to stay open.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Got it.

In my previous questions regarding the wage subsidy, which you really hadn't looked at, in terms of the different types of analyses that could be conducted on the wage subsidy, you mentioned in the report that “given the announced extension of the program, parliamentarians could benefit from knowing the economic effects of this program”.

You mentioned that you really hadn't looked at the economic effects of this program, but in your opinion, what types of analyses could the department conduct on the economic effects of this program?

[Karen Hogan]

Let's just be clear. We did look at all the analysis that the Department of Finance did leading up to the program. I can't discuss it in our report because of the types of documents it was contained in. That's why we made a recommendation that they should publish an analysis of the wage subsidy program to inform a good debate within Parliament, but also to make all Canadians aware of the things that were considered.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. Got it.

I want to change gears a bit and focus on the Canada Border Services Agency and recommendation 8.100. It states:

The [CBSA], in collaboration with [PHAC], should ensure that border services officers have the appropriate guidance and tools to enforce border control measures imposed to limit the spread of the virus that causes COVID-19. Furthermore, because border control measures regarding entry and mandatory quarantine continue to evolve, the [CBSA] should conduct a review of decisions related to essential workers to ensure that border services officers are properly applying exemptions. The findings from this review should be used to adjust existing and future guidance for the enforcement of emergency orders.

How often, in your opinion, should CBSA conduct a review of its decisions related to essential workers during a pandemic?

[Karen Hogan]

That's a really tough question to answer. It depends how many times the orders are changing.

Judgment is always needed when you apply exemptions. You want to make sure that the guidance is comprehensive and clear enough, so that border service officers, when they each apply their own judgment lens to it, they're doing so in the most fair and consistent manner.

That's why better supervision to make sure those judgments were being applied consistently is what was needed. We also recommended some additional control. Really, it's relooking at, any time a new order is issued, whether you need to clarify the instructions that were given. The frequency depends on how many times an order would change the guidance that you already have out there.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Would you say the agency's process for evaluating and adjusting emergency orders and communicating those orders to the border agents was sufficient? Did you have a chance to look at that?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm watching Carol nodding. We did look at whether or not they collaborated very well with the Public Health Agency, and whether, together, they designed guidance in a good fashion. We did—as I'm watching Carol's head nod—see them adjust as they needed throughout the pandemic.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

Mr. Chair, those are all the questions I have today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

With that, I'd like to thank the Auditor General for her presentation today.

Ms. Hogan, Ms. Richard, Ms. Schwartz, Ms. McCalla and Mr. Le Goff, I thank you for being here and for providing us with some answers. Where possible, if you have further additions to the answers that you've given, if you would forward them to the clerk, that would be greatly appreciated. The clerk would dispense that to the whole committee.

The meeting is adjourned.