Government Operations Committee on June 9th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Yes, and I'm trying to tighten this up and get this done. They've been bearing with us this whole day, and we greatly appreciate that.

Mr. McCauley, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Great.

Mr. Ducharme, the rather disturbing information you provided to us about government invoking what I think is probably kind of a shady use of the national security exemption to not give a contract reminds me of the TV show Yes Minister, with Humphrey Appleby, and his comment of “All government policy is wrong...but frightfully well carried out!” That seems to be the case here.

Have you heard any similar stories of companies you believe were perfectly suitable to provide PPE or other COVID-related items to the government being shut out for such dubious reasons?

[Philip Ducharme]

I believe they discussed the National Security Act when the proponent asked the government what was wrong with their bid or what they lacked within their bid. When the 233 indigenous businesses applied to that one RFP that was for indigenous businesses, that was the standard comment. Originally—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Then was it just on the one contract that several purveyors were told they couldn't be told the reasons because of security?

[Philip Ducharme]

Yes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Wow.

Did they get any other feedback at all about the reasons? I recall—and I think it was you who mentioned it—that one company had submitted 34 RFPs and heard nothing. I think that was over several years. Did these companies receive any feedback at all—besides on national security—on pricing or anything else as to why they did not get the contracts?

[Philip Ducharme]

They did not, to my knowledge. We actually went back and we worked. I contacted the contracting officer to try to find out—and I went to our members who applied, too—and he said it was based on the price. That was the only sort of.... I tried to educate our suppliers, as opposed to the government coming back and telling them where they may have been lacking in that opportunity, but again, that was through our own research with the government.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's great.

Ms. Suitor had some comments about how the energy industry, especially in Alberta, had very good systems set up to deliver contracts and businesses. Do you have any similar industries you could point to as a gold standard the government could contact and learn from on being better able to deliver contracts to indigenous businesses?

[Philip Ducharme]

Is that for Ms. Suitor or me?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's for you, and then I can pop over to Ms. Suitor. It's just that I have limited time now, and she's answered already.

[Philip Ducharme]

Sure.

I talked about supply chains. We have 82 corporations that have joined us. We had an event last week with Deloitte, which is one of our newest aboriginal procurement champions. They actually told us they have met their 5% target, which I think is quite interesting for a new company that's starting the journey with indigenous procurement. We also had Suncor there, which has over 10% of their spend with indigenous businesses.

It's happening, but, again, it's happening from the leadership in these groups and the commitment they are making to realizing that this is going to help the overall indigenous economy and Canada as a whole.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you find that indigenous businesses have just given up or are perhaps refusing even to bid on things and are focusing on Suncor or other companies that have better systems set up?

[Philip Ducharme]

I think they are going around and shopping to see what the opportunities are. We look at some companies, especially in Saskatchewan. Cameco used to do a lot of procuring. In the last few years, I think it's gone down a little bit. We have looked at these businesses that are looking to expand. We have one company from Saskatchewan that's partnered with an indigenous company here in Ontario.

I think within the federal government there are some that have given up, but as indigenous people, we are resilient. We've had the door slammed in our face so many times—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You're nothing if not—

[Philip Ducharme]

—that we're not going to give up.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How are Deloitte and other companies getting the word out that there are contracts to bid on?

[Philip Ducharme]

I don't want to take too much credit, but within our program we have this aboriginal procurement marketplace. It's an enhanced LinkedIn feature. When these champions come to us with opportunities, we reach out to our members. In an ideal world we would open it up to all indigenous businesses, but as an association, we do require membership. We've worked together quite closely with corporate Canada on increasing opportunities.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. McCauley, you have four seconds.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll just say thanks to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much, and thank you for that.

Now we will go to our last questioner.

I do have Mr. Kusmierczyk down, but I do not see Mr. Kusmierczyk here.

Oh, it's Mr. Drouin. We will defer to Mr. Drouin for five minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll just take this opportunity, because we've gone round and round with the questions and you have provided so much material for us to work with. I'll make this offer as well.

We had the opportunity to chat at this committee a few years back, as Mr. McCauley mentioned, as we are both old people on this committee—just him, not me. I want to thank you for coming to this committee. All of you have provided some good material. Please do reach out to us outside of committee when there are issues that arise. I know we have the parliamentary secretary for public service. I know he can be helpful and we can all be helpful in navigating the system when it's not working.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin. I appreciate that.

With that, I really do want to state that I found this extremely compelling. The witnesses had me so much into it. I really appreciate the conversation. In many ways, I allowed things to go probably longer than I have in our meetings the past a couple of times because it was so riveting to hear your responses and the comments you had. I really do appreciate that.

Ms. Suitor, thank you very much for attending.

Mr. Sinclair, thank you, and I apologize. It seemed to be always you that I was cutting off when the time came up. It just worked that way.

Mr. Ducharme, thank you very much for your comments and your thoroughness.

Also, Mr. Metatawabin, thank you for your comments. It's eight o'clock in Ottawa. It's six o'clock here where I am in Saskatchewan. I believe it's closer to 10 o'clock for you, so I appreciate your being here.

I also would like to thank the interpreters, who have stuck with us this whole time with the ins and outs of today's meeting and the challenges we have had with the votes, etc.

With that said, I would like to thank everybody for staying with us today.

I declare the meeting adjourned.