Government Operations Committee on June 16th, 2021

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Drouin]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. The committee is meeting today from 4:11 p.m. to 6:11 p.m. to hear from the President of the Treasury Board and officials on the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (A) 2021-22.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants at this meeting that taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted. To ensure an orderly meeting—and please be easy on me—I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation in this video conference will work very much as it does in a regular committee meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of “Floor”, “English” or “French”. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on your microphone icon to activate your mike. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute. To raise a point of order during the meeting, committee members should ensure their microphone is unmuted and say, “I have a point of order” to get the chair's attention.

The clerk and analysts are participating in this meeting virtually today. If you need to speak to them during the meeting, please email them through the committee email address. The clerk can also be reached on his mobile phone.

For those who are participating in the committee room, masks are required unless you are seated as well as when physical distancing is not possible.

I will now invite the President of the Treasury Board to make his opening statement. After approximately 60 minutes, the president will leave. It will not be necessary to suspend, as only one other witness will be joining the panel and he will be tested before the meeting starts.

I would like to thank the President of the Treasury Board for his appearance today.

I would also like to thank the officials, who will remain here for the next 60 minutes.

Following the testimony, members of the committee may ask questions.

Mr. Clerk, can you confirm for me that the President of the Treasury Board does indeed have 10 minutes for his statement?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Paul Cardegna]

That's correct.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Drouin]

All right.

Then I yield the floor to you, Mr. President of the Treasury Board.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee for inviting me to speak about the Supplementary Estimates (A), 2021-2022, which were tabled on May 27th.

I’m joined today by the following officials from the Treasury Board Secretariat: Glenn Purves, who is Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector; Roger Ermuth, who is Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector; Karen Cahill, who is Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer; Sonya Read, who is Acting Assistant Secretary, Digital and Services Policy; and Tolga Yalkin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Workplace Policies and Services.

These supplementary estimates are one part of a broad set of reports—including the departmental plans, the fiscal monitor, the departmental results reports and the public accounts—that provide information on spending plans and outcomes to Canadians and parliamentarians. We also report through GC InfoBase, an interactive online tool that presents a wealth of federal data in a visual manner.

Starting late last fiscal year, we made several changes to enhance the presentation of the supplementary estimates. For example, we published additional information relating to the COVID-19 response in both the tabled estimates and in an online annex. We also expanded GC InfoBase with more information on planned spending authorities and expenditures for COVID-19 response measures.

Changes to forecasts of statutory spending, including those pending parliamentary approval in the first ^x Budget Implementation Act of 2021, are also included in these Estimates. This provides a more complete estimate of the government’s total planned expenditures.

Through these Supplementary Estimates, the government is seeking parliamentary approval of $24.0 billion in new voted spending. Within this proposed spending, the health, safety, and well-being of Canadians are front and centre. Approximately $11.2 billion of the proposed voted spending responds to the public health, social, and economic impacts on Canadians of the COVID-19 pandemic. Of that amount, some of the top expenditures include: $1.5 billion for medical research, development, and the purchase of vaccines; $1.1 billion for enhanced border and travel measures and isolation sites; and $761 million for the Indigenous Community Support Fund.

These estimates also provide funding for economic responses to the pandemic, including support for targeted sectors and businesses, and funding to promote growth through the recovery period.

In addition, the supplementary estimates propose funding to address homelessness, the lack of affordable housing and food insecurity, all of which have been exacerbated by the pandemic.

We also continue in our commitment to indigenous peoples. We've proposed funding to settle claims and to provide housing and infrastructure in indigenous communities, child and family services, and mental health and wellness support.

In the funding for the Treasury Board Secretariat, the department is seeking $19 million for Phoenix stabilization and HR-to-pay initiatives. This funding is required to improve pay-related HR processes and systems and to support new and ongoing employees who are addressing compensation and labour relations work related to Phoenix.

In addition, the Treasury Board Secretariat received an $89,000 transfer from the Department of Employment and Social Development to support the Employment Equity Task Force. The Task Force’s mandate is to study, consult, and advise on how a renewed employment equity regime could be implemented in a way that supports diversity, inclusion, and respect for people.

In conclusion, my officials and I thank the Committee for exercising diligence in their ongoing study of the government’s spending to support Canadians during these challenging times.

We are available to answer any questions you may have.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Drouin]

Thank you very much, Mr. President of the Treasury Board.

I must point out that you have left committee members an additional four minutes in which to ask questions.

I will go to Mr. McCauley for six minutes.

Mr. McCauley, just so you understand my style, I will put the one-minute time mark on my screen. I know you keep your timer on, but look for it.

The floor is yours.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. You're doing a fabulous job.

Minister, welcome back. Although we have our disagreements, obviously, I'm sincerely glad to see you back and doing well.

I want to talk about SNC‑Lavalin. Your government gave a $150-million sole-source contract to SNC‑Lavalin for mobile health units. The issue is that no province asked for them. PHAC did not ask for them. Public health did not ask for these mobile health units, but they were declared such an urgency that they had to be sole-sourced to SNC‑Lavalin.

Did this $150 million go through the Treasury Board process?

[Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you first for your kind words. It's always nice to see and to hear you.

I of course won't need to remind everyone that we've been in a pandemic with severe health and economic outcomes, so a number of investments were important for getting through that pandemic. However, for further insight and details on your important question, I will turn to Mr. Ermuth, who is a specialist in this area.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'd like just a quick yes or no as to whether it went through the Treasury Board approval process.

[Jean-Yves Duclos]

That's exactly what I will ask Mr. Roger Ermuth to provide.

[Roger Ermuth, Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat]

In terms of this contract, I'm actually not specifically aware of what process it went through. The decision of whether or not a sole-source contract would be made is made by the specific department.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Right. I'm just curious as to whether it went through the process.

Minister, nobody has asked for these mobile health units. They haven't been deployed. In your role as the ultimate guardian of taxpayers' money and providing oversight, do you approve of this money being used for something that no one apparently asked for and that is not getting used?

[Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you again for the question. As we have just heard a moment ago, this is a matter for Public Health and Health Canada to provide more details on, but I would be glad to turn back to Mr. Ermuth for further information.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No, Minister, I'm asking whether you, as Canada's chief guardian of taxpayers' interests in your role as Treasury Board president, approve of that $150-million sole-source contract.

The reason I ask is that in the supplementary estimates, there is an additional $660 million for mobile public health units. We've heard that the government hasn't used any of these units from SNC-Lavalin, but we see another $660 million in the supplementary estimates.

How much of that is going for SNC-Lavalin, and why is the government continuing to pour money into mobile health units that aren't being used?

[Jean-Yves Duclos]

If you would like to have further details on the precise role of the estimates process in guiding the procurement process to which you allude, let me turn to Mr. Purves, who is the—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I realize the request was by PSPC, but they're in your supplementary estimates, and Treasury Board, which put out the supplementary estimates, has it in the highlights, so I assume someone at Treasury Board knows some more details about this $651 million for health units.

[Jean-Yves Duclos]

You are well informed, and that's a tribute to your experience and expertise in the matter.

As is the case of most departments, Health Canada would work with PSPC. Let me turn to Mr. Purves, who would be able to address the connection between the estimates process and that procurement.

[Glenn Purves, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

In that aspect, Mr. McCauley, you have two pieces of information you're looking for. One is the proportion that is going to SNC. I don't have that information—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How much of the $650 million is going for mobile health units? None of them have been used in eastern Canada, so I'm wondering why there's another $650 million. It's in the estimates, so it has obviously gone through the Treasury Board approval process. I'm hoping someone from Treasury Board can tell us why there's an extra $650 million.

[Glenn Purves]

Specifically on the mobile health units that are captured in that, we'd be happy to get back to the committee after liaising with public health.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Let me just go back to the supplementary estimates. We've seen the rather—I can't find a word for it—disgusting, I guess, government bailout of Air Canada with, of course, taxpayers' money. The bailout included the wage subsidy, which we heard, by the way, also apparently didn't go through the Treasury Board process. The wage subsidy was used to pay off Air Canada executives.

I see in the estimates that there's now funding for regional air transportation initiatives. There's almost $30 million.

Is any of that money going to airlines, including Air Canada?

[Jean-Yves Duclos]

First, on the wage subsidy—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

My question is specifically regarding the $30 million in the supplementary estimates.

Is any of that going to airlines, or specifically Air Canada?

[Jean-Yves Duclos]

If you wish, I'm here to be helpful.

If you wish, I can quickly address the wage subsidy—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No. I'm asking about the $30 million in the supplementary estimates. Is any of that's going to airlines or Air Canada? Seeing as it's in the supplementaries and you've detailed it in your summary, I assume you must know.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Drouin]

I apologize. I hate to be the gatekeeper for time, but it is time.

I will now move to Mr. Kusmierczyk for six minutes.