Government Operations Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2020

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm glad to see that my colleague from Hamilton is seated, because this is going to blow him away.

I love this. I love where the member is going with this. I really do. For me, this is exactly why I love being on this committee. This is important work, and this is the type of work I am excited rolling up my sleeves about and supporting because it is important. This is it. So I really commend him for bringing this very thoughtful motion forward.

This aligns really well with this government's focus in terms of promoting diversity and inclusion. You can look at, for example, the Black entrepreneurship program that was announced recently. That's going to be coming online. There's $220 million that's going to be going towards that. You look at the fact that part of that funding is going toward the establishment of a Black entrepreneurship knowledge hub, which is going to collect some important information and data about the barriers and the opportunities that are facing Black entrepreneurs in Canada.

You look at the fact that the government put forward a women's entrepreneurship strategy, the first ever, for $5 billion. You look at the fact that the government indicated in its throne speech that it wants to accelerate the women's entrepreneurship strategy, because this is an important part of not only the prosperity of our country but also the economic recovery of our country.

You look at, in April, how our government made an announcement that it would provide $306 million to indigenous businesses as well, because we know how important indigenous businesses are to the prosperity of this community. In terms of entrepreneurship, they are the fastest-growing group of entrepreneurs in our country, and we know they need support, not just during the pandemic but after.

I love where my colleague from Hamilton is going with this. I will be supporting this, but I want to know if my colleague would be interested in going further. I think that we need to go further. This is timely. This is absolutely timely.

I want to know whether Mr. Green, my honourable colleague, would be interested in working with me to go further. I would propose an amendment to this motion. If it's okay, Chair, I'd like to put forward or read that amendment, if that's possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Certainly.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I would put forward, to build upon what Mr. Green has brought forward to this committee, an amendment—a friendly amendment, I hope—that the committee conduct a minimum of six meetings' study on businesses owned by under-represented groups—Black, indigenous, women, and persons with disabilities—and their ability to procure from the Government of Canada, before and during COVID-19, and that the committee report its findings to the House by May 30, 2021.

Again, I do believe that procurement is a critical aspect of entrepreneurship and the success of these businesses in Canada, and I believe that the time is now to study that and bring witnesses forward.

That is the friendly amendment that I propose in the spirit of collaboration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk. Do you have that in both languages?

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I just put that forward at the moment, but I can get that to you very quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Clerk, do we need those?

[The Clerk]

We don't need the amendment in both official languages.

However, may I ask that we suspend briefly so that I can call you on the phone?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Certainly.

We will take a five-minute suspension. We'll be back in five minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Here we go.

Mr. McCauley, I think, is away from his chair right now. We'll just hold for a little bit, if you don't mind. I see Mr. McCauley is not there, so we'll hold for a second. I did say five minutes. Saskatchewan clocks are a little bit faster than the rest of the country, apparently.

Are you there?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, what was the date you had for your amendment? Do you mind repeating that?

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It would be May 30, 2021, no later than May 30, 2021.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I want to thank Mr. Green for bringing this forth originally. I'd certainly love to dig into this more.

My biggest concern is that I want to make sure we add enough teeth to this. Those who were with us in the 42nd Parliament, of course, studied SME procurement with indigenous people, and we heard again and again.... Every single witness we had from indigenous and Métis communities came forward and said that the government was not following its own laws on procurement, that PSPC and INAC were a mess, and that not one of them was actually helpful or following the laws. Then we had the bureaucrats and the government show up, throwing their shoulders out because they were patting themselves on the back so hard.

We repeatedly brought it up in committee that the people we were supposed to be serving were saying that it wasn't working, yet witnesses—ADMs and that—from PSPC, INAC and the others thought everything was perfect and were tripping over themselves to compliment themselves on what a great job they were doing—complete disconnect. We tabled a report on this, and since that time, not one action has been taken on that report.

I applaud you, Mr. Kusmierczyk and Mr. Green, for bringing this forward. We don't have to do it today, but I really think we need to build some teeth into this if we're going to be spending this time. The Liberals have been in power for five years and have done nothing to address this. It's rather shocking. We did a greening government study that was duplicated by five other committees. That seemed more important than this. However, we actually did a study previously, and nothing has been done.

I do hope that we would actually add some teeth to this, and I think we could all support the motion and the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you for that, Mr. McCauley.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, thank you very much for your amendment. I'm going to ask you to read it one more time for me if you would, please. I'd just like to hear it one more time if I could.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay, great. I could read it in French as well, as I have it—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

No problem. I'll read it in English. I'll read it slowly, just to make sure the interpreters can do their work as well.

It reads as follows: “that, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee conduct, at minimum, a six-meeting study on businesses owned by under-represented groups, black, indigenous, women and persons with disabilities and their ability to procure from the Government of Canada, before and during COVID-19, and that the committee report its findings to the House by May 30, 2021.”

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

As I look at this, it appears to me that you're.... It sounds like you have some consensus around it. However, you're adding to a motion that's already looking into documents. It would alter that motion completely, from what I can see. I'm thinking it is outside the scope of the motion being presented by Mr. Green at this point in time. It might be something that you could present as a motion independently. By the sound of it from other members of the committee, you might be able to work amongst yourselves to come up with one that is acceptable to everybody.

So on this amendment, I'm going to rule that it's outside the scope.

That said, is there any further discussion on Mr. Green's motion?

[The Clerk]

Mr. Chair, there are three people who wish to speak—Mr. Kusmierczyk, Mr. McCauley and Mr. Green—but Mr. Drouin wants to intervene, at this point.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I just need a point of clarification.

I'm having a hard time understanding how a motion to have meetings related to the production of documents is somehow ruled out of context. Can somebody give me a rationale so that I can go back and explain it? I'm really having a hard time. It's the production of documents, and then we are asking for witnesses to come before the committee on the very same issues that the motion to produce documents is asking. If it were asking for another study on something completely irrelevant to the production of documents, then I'd say, yes, I agree, but now the two are linked.

I'd love a point of clarification on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

I'll ask the clerk if he can explain it a little bit more clearly for you.

[The Clerk]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Green's motion is being moved in the context of a study already existing before the committee—that is the context of the study of the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic—and the motion seeks to send for documents. It doesn't seek to actually create another study. It could be argued that Mr. Kusmierczyk's amendment, which is to create a new study, while the subject is limited, goes outside the scope of the original motion. Amendments, to be admissible, must be considered within the context of the motion they seek to amend.

That being said, the chair has rendered his ruling that the amendment is inadmissible. However, nothing prohibits any member from challenging the ruling of the chair, at which point it will be voted on by the committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

We would challenge that decision.

[The Clerk]

I beg your pardon, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry to intervene, but Mr. Drouin wanted the floor again.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Yes.

We would challenge that decision.