Not exactly.
Evidence of meeting #100 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #100 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:55 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
What ended up happening was that the resources that were listed in the bid submission were never actually captured into the contract, so the provision that applies to the exchange or replacement didn't actually have that same merit criteria—
6 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
What controls were actually put in place to do that swap?
6 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
That's a fair question. That's a question that we also asked ourselves. There seemed to be just a general lack of control around this swapping exercise. Again, I don't want to raise too many alarms, but it is a significant alarm in terms of, particularly in this instance, how the criteria were applied for other bidders.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Then the work was applied or the contract was awarded within the context of the TA. Is that correct?
6 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
Yes. Again, I'll try to explain this as basically as I can, because I know that not everyone is a procurement expert.
Essentially, the resources that are submitted in the proposal should be carried forward into the contract and ultimately form part of subsequent TAs. Unfortunately, what happened was that, in the solicitation documents, the resources that were evaluated were never actually captured in the contract. Therefore, when the TA was submitted, it was the supplier themselves that could ultimately replace that resource. As opposed to having to meet the criteria that they met with the original resources bid, they were just required to meet the minimum: the mandatory criteria plus the rated criteria minimums.
Again, I know this is a bit difficult to understand, but it is a significant—
6 p.m.
Liberal
6 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
I wouldn't describe it as “nefarious”, but I would say that the frequency was concerning.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Was it as a result of the period of time during COVID?
6 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
Again, I don't want to downplay the fact that this was during the pandemic, and obviously it was a very different time. I know we're now outside the pandemic, so it's very easy to have a retrospective lens and apply it in that way. I will say, though, that number is still exceptionally high, even in that circumstance.
6 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, gentlemen.
Mrs. Vignola, go ahead, please, for six minutes.
6 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being with us, Mr. Jeglic and Mr. Mersereau.
You told us about the process, including the technical aspect, and you said that 76% of the resources did not end up doing the work and were swapped.
Were they replaced by equivalent individuals? It is possible to know if they were replaced by equivalent individuals?
6 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
We can't say definitively in all instances the status of the replacements, but I think, Derek, perhaps you can answer this better. I would say in many instances that they were not equivalent.
6 p.m.
Acting Director, Inquiries, Quality Assurance & Risk Management, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
For the most part, they.... Well, everyone who worked on the contracts met the minimum requirements that were set. When they have criteria associated with the individuals for the resources who do the work, they have to meet all the mandatory criteria—the “must pass”. As well, with the point-rated criteria, there's a minimum score. Everyone who.... We saw records of there being evaluations. There was some missing documentation, but everyone who was evaluated met the minimum standards.
What happens in these situations is that the individuals who are put forward to win the contract are essentially the best resources possible. Then, later on, on the ones who are bid, you could still have some good-quality resources, but they're not the absolute best because there's no longer that competitive nature.
6 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
In this case, that happened 76% of the time. Is it common for so many of the professionals proposed in the bid to end up not performing any work on the contract?
You know those ads on the internet that are just clickbait? I get the sense here that those professionals were being used as clickbait to get contracts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions of dollars.
Does that happen a lot with procurement contracts, or was it unique to the ArriveCAN situation?
6 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
I'll answer this again as directly as possible.
Because we have not reviewed this specific issue more broadly, I would be speculating.
However, it is an issue that we've heard about. I would say it happens. I can't say that 76% is higher than normal, but it is an issue. I am very happy the committee has raised this, because I think this is an issue that needs to be rectified. As the previous member mentioned, it has been brought to the attention of the department and they've been seized by this. I anticipate a very positive reaction.
6:05 p.m.
Acting Director, Inquiries, Quality Assurance & Risk Management, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
If I could just add....
In response to the report on PSPC procurement, they said this was an existing concern they already had. Essentially, the results of this study were validating their concerns. They're going to promote not using criteria associated with individuals if they're not going to be named in the contract. That would take away the incentive to put forward high-quality individuals who are never then given the opportunity to work on the contract.
6:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Has Public Services and Procurement Canada, SPAC, or the Canada Border Services Agency, CBSA, ever cancelled a contract with a company because it replaced most of the experts that were the reason its bid was selected, on the grounds that it required but did not obtain truth and transparency?
6:05 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
Again, I don't want to speculate, so I can't directly answer.
However, I would say this is something that I'm sure causes a great deal of frustration within the departments as well.
6:05 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
I'll ask a question that might be easier to answer.
Do you think it's reasonable for the federal government of a bilingual country to require all employees working on such a contract to understand English? That could have a negative impact on anyone whose company can do programming but whose employees speak French, whether that company is in Quebec or elsewhere.
6:05 p.m.
Procurement Ombudsman, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman
That's a very good question.
From a technical standpoint, I've heard many IT professionals speaking about the lack of resources. I don't want to speculate on why that was done. I'm not an IT expert, but I think that, in a bilingual country, it would be important to also include French resources.