Government Operations Committee on Jan. 31st, 2024

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you. I believe that's called plagiarism in most institutions.

I'll continue on in that vein.

It's mentioned that security clearances were switched on a contract because the CBSA wanted to work with a specific resource that did not fulfill the proper security requirements. How often are departments able to simply lower security requirements to suit their own wants and needs over the security of all Canadians?

My other colleague mentioned the national security exception, but here I'm referring specifically to the security clearances that were switched—again, we're seeing the bait and switch—on a contract because the CBSA apparently wanted to work with a specific vendor.

[Alexander Jeglic]

I should say that this shouldn't happen. If the classification of security was accurate, then that shouldn't happen. If there was an error or an oversight, then I agree that it should be corrected. I'm not sure that I can definitively say, based on what we saw, which category I would put it in, but I would agree with the characterization that it should not happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, go ahead, please.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would begin by stating that the ArriveCAN app was downloaded 60 million times in the year that it was in operation. It allowed commerce to continue, trade to continue, billions of dollars of trade across the Ambassador Bridge in my community—not only parts for machines or for cars but also medicine, which was absolutely important. We heard around this table about how, without the ArriveCAN app, trade and the exchange of vital goods would have ground to a halt across the Ambassador Bridge, so I want to take issue with the comment that was made by my counterpart across the way.

I have a simple question for you, Mr. Jeglic. Did you find corruption in your analysis?

[Alexander Jeglic]

What I can say is that we found systemic non-compliance.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

Did you find corruption?

[Alexander Jeglic]

No.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Did you find fraud?

[Alexander Jeglic]

No.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You found non-compliance. Is that correct?

[Alexander Jeglic]

What I will say is that I do want to paint the fulsome picture. First, we found issues with documentation. Like I said, we cannot identify an actual source of why there is so much documentation missing, but there is certainly a high level of missing documentation. Second, we had systemic non-compliance with contractual obligations. Third, I would just mention the public disclosures by whistle-blowers. However, again, that wasn't part of our review. I'm talking about what was being disclosed simultaneously while the review was happening by witnesses and others talking on this topic.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How many contracts do PSPC and the Government of Canada enter into every year? I'm just curious. Give me a ballpark figure

[Alexander Jeglic]

I think I heard one of the witnesses mention 10,000 transactions. I'm outside of my level of knowledge, but I believe a witness did mention that 10,000 was a figure.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You talked about the fact that procurement is a very complex creature, you could say. Is it fair to say that governments in Canada and around the world are always striving to evolve their procurement systems? There are always gaps that need to be filled. There are always issues with existing systems. There's always work that needs to be done to train workers, to make sure that they're compliant with the existing rules and also to fill gaps.

Is it fair to say Canada's system is no different from other procurement systems around the world on that score?

[Alexander Jeglic]

I would say that there are certainly jurisdictions where procurement continues to be a difficulty in terms of advancing objectives. I would describe that we've seen significant change in Canada over the last several years, but I also have to honestly say that, if you look at certain reports that were issued even a decade ago about some of the problems that we see in procurement, they would still apply today. To me, that's indicative that, yes, there is absolutely positive change being made, but again it's sometimes akin to changing the tires on a moving bus, for lack of a better expression. As a result....

I will say, however, that I do speak to procurement communities across all areas—so not just to suppliers but also to Canadian government buyers—and I don't want to give the impression that these individuals across the government did not do fantastic work during the pandemic. That being said, that's not what we're here for. We're here for the report specifically and what we saw specifically with ArriveCAN.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Again, I think you mentioned it today. Concerning the response that you got from the departments, did you get a sense that they were striving to improve their systems and that they wanted to work with you and improve the systems?

[Alexander Jeglic]

What I will say is that there was a previous mention of appendix A, which was the document—

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes, please.

[Alexander Jeglic]

—that CBSA provided. I would say that it's obvious from that document that they're taking the recommendations very seriously, which, again from our perspective, is what we want to see. There's no point in undertaking these reviews if the recommendations aren't taken seriously. From public statements made and the annex that we were able to append, I would certainly say that it appears that they're taking the recommendations very seriously.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

These protocols, these systems that exist, didn't just emerge last year, the year before or five years ago. I think you alluded to that. They've been around for a while. A lot of these systems date back 15 or 20 years to previous governments. Is it a fair assessment that some of the gaps, some of the shortcomings, can be traced back not just years but even decades? I mean this is a complex system—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give a very quick answer, please.

[Alexander Jeglic]

I would simply say that it's a very slow evolution.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mrs. Vignola, you have two and a half minutes, please.