Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lafleur, for being here with us here today and bringing us your testimony.

Over the course of the last number of months, we've heard testimony that there are allegations that CVs were being inflated in order to win contracts. Bona fides were being inflated to win contracts. Is that enough grounds, in your experience, to proceed from a preliminary review to a formal investigation, just on those grounds? If someone is caught inflating CVs to win contracts, is that typically enough to move from a preliminary report to a formal report?

[Michel Lafleur]

Maybe one point of clarification, if I could, is that I wouldn't be responsible for investigating the actions of vendors, only of employees of the CBSA.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Fair enough. Okay. That's a good answer.

I wanted to ask you, how many procurement-related cases have you investigated? You've been doing this for 15 years. Are the vast majority of the cases related to procurement? Is a small subsection related to procurement? I'm just curious if you can speak to that.

[Michel Lafleur]

It's a very small subsection.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It's a very small subsection. Okay.

In your experience, this case that you're examining right now, how normal is it? How out of the ordinary is it? Can you maybe speak to that and provide us a little bit of context in terms of what we're looking at here?

[Michel Lafleur]

My presence before committee today is highly abnormal. As someone who is responsible for conducting an administrative investigation that is ongoing, being asked to speak publicly is not normal, and it is a challenge.

I do have responsibility to ensure the integrity of the process and procedural fairness for the individuals under investigation. I also have a responsibility to ensure that our investigation ultimately is able, if there is wrongdoing identified, to lead to accountability. While I have great respect for the work of this committee, it is difficult to answer some of the questions relating to those very pointed points.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I know you can't speak specifically to this case. I understand that, but I just wanted to ask this on the specifics of this case. Are there things you have not seen in your experience in your 15 years that you've seen in this particular case that you're investigating?

[Michel Lafleur]

Absolutely.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. Can you tell us when the preliminary review was completed?

[Michel Lafleur]

The preliminary review...it happened relatively quick. I would say that by December of 2022 we had evidence that at least some of the allegations appeared to be substantiated, and we would have been in a position to proceed formally with the investigation at that time, were it not for the ongoing criminal investigation.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How much time did it take before moving from the preliminary to the formal, roughly speaking? What are we talking? Is it a matter of days—weeks—that you make the switch to a formal...?

[Michel Lafleur]

Generally speaking, it can take up to seven weeks. We give ourselves 45 business days.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. That's to switch to the formal....

[Michel Lafleur]

That's to move to formal.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Who makes that decision? Is that your decision or does someone make that decision for you and say, “Okay, we want you to move into a formal...”?

[Michel Lafleur]

In the normal course of an investigation, it would be the investigator and the responsible manager who would make those decisions.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. In that case, it's you, with management, who make that decision together.

[Michel Lafleur]

It's my management team.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It's your management team.

[Michel Lafleur]

Yes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. Gotcha.

I actually have a question for the chair, if that's okay.

Thank you, Michel.

I just wanted to know, Mr. Chair, when did you become aware that a member of this committee had the preliminary statement of fact?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Pretty much today, I understand such details...but I'm not sure if he has the full report. I was intending to discuss the release of the report, because there are some issues around it that we have to decide as a committee. I was going to do it on Wednesday, but I think we're going to move that up in camera right after we finish our committee business.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You can understand my concerns here. It seems that there are certain members.... I'm not sure whether the other Conservative MPs have access to this information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I can suggest that this is very often though.... There are certain MPs who have ATIPs and have other reports that others do not have. I think that's up to the members to discuss that with...or to do their research on that.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

No, just as a matter of process, I would expect that at the moment that members of this committee—especially the chair—have information, asymmetrical information, it is distributed, or that at least we are made aware of the fact that the information is now out there. I think that is really important to—