Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Chair, this has turned into quite a twisted tale here, and I'm trying to follow all of these twists and turns as someone who joined the committee partway through this study. There's a lot of complexity here. We have this preliminary statement of fact that sounds like it's very interesting. Some members of the committee have it. Others don't—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I would not say some, but anyway, go ahead. It's your time.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It seems to me that some members of the committee have it because they were reading from it and they said they had it, so we're in this strange position where Mr. Lafleur can't give it to us, the chair has it and we're going to discuss, apparently, whether we can see it. It seems to me that it would have been helpful for this line of questioning today for all members of the committee to have it so that together—because we're all seeking accountability here—we could ask questions of Mr. Lafleur, who's the author of the preliminary statement of fact. It also seems that, having that out in the open, in some ways puts additional pressure on the investigation, but we're already down that path now.

One of the interesting things here is that we have these two civil servants, and I wasn't here for their original testimony but I understand that they were subjected to some fairly strong lines of questioning and allegations from my Conservative colleagues at previous meetings. Now the Conservatives seem to be running interference for these same civil servants, who appear to be giving them confidential information so that they can ask certain questions at a committee where not all members are privy to that information. It creates a very odd dynamic

It seems to me that the best way to clear the air is to simply have the preliminary statement of fact on the table and to invite Mr. Lafleur back so we can ask him additional questions about the content of that document. Frankly, a bunch of us are playing with one hand behind our backs because, for whatever reason, certain witnesses felt that giving those documents to some members of the committee and not to others was going to be to their advantage.

We're in a situation where, obviously, these allegations are extremely serious. If the allegations that have been made in the Botler report turn out to indeed be true, this indicates that there is serious wrongdoing amongst civil servants working on the ArriveCAN procurement, and that's something all Canadians should be concerned about.

Mr. Chair, if you grant it, I will make a motion that the committee be provided with the preliminary statement of fact immediately.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a quick point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You will burn out your time to discuss your motion, to begin with. Also, I would ask again that you wait. I will discuss how we will proceed with it in camera, or we could do it publicly, if you wish. It's up to you, but the—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'd like it to be done publicly, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Sure.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, Chair, but on a point of order, I don't know if the motion will be in order, because I proposed exactly the same motion and the committee adopted that motion early last week, I think, and it had a three-week deadline. I gather we're going to have a discussion about how to dispose of that particular document.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It's a duplicate, actually, of Mr. Genuis' motion from three weeks ago.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's a different motion, to be fair.

Can I respond, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The committee has orders not to do what you want.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let me interrupt. I have the floor here, Mr. Genuis.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll withdraw my motion, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, Mr. Genuis is right that basically you're asking for a duplication of a motion that has already been received.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's the word “immediately”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll discuss it right now, then, and we may lose the time for your motion, but we're going to discuss it right now with the committee.

The request for these documents came in from Mr. Genuis. We agreed. The committee agreed to pass the motion to have the documents provided. CBSA wrote to me, saying, “We will provide one copy only, and it will be under lockdown.” No one would see it. There would be one copy and it wouldn't be translated. We wrote back saying, “No, that's not the motion. You will provide it.” They wanted it held in private for sensitivity reasons. We wrote back saying, “Please provide it”, and I would take a look. I would read through it to see how sensitive it was, to see if was actually sensitive stuff.

I've read through most of it and made notes that I was going to discuss in camera, but we'll do it publicly. I was going to suggest that we distribute it only to the members themselves, not to the wider 48 people generally on our email list. I spoke to the clerk today before the meeting on how we could do that. We would just need a motion. My suggestion was going to be to propose that we translate it and share it, but only with the members themselves, not with our staff and not with the usual 47 people on the list.

That was going to be my proposal on Wednesday. That seems to have been moved up. If you wish to discuss it now, that would be my suggestion—that we share it with only the members.

Go ahead, Mr. Sousa.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, the issue we're having here is that obviously Mr. Brock is not a regular on this committee and he's had access to this statement. In fact, you were aware that he had it, and you had it, and yet you didn't—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let me interrupt. I was aware that he had it when he spoke about it, but I have to question whether this is a first—and I'm going to say this to all of you. I'm kind of stunned. It's almost like the first committee. How many times has any of us received reports or emails or ATIPs that haven't gone to everyone—

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, my question is—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

—and yet now, all of a sudden, someone has one and it has to be shared?

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

No, no, listen. I just want to understand, Mr. Chair. I apologize that I'm not as astute when it comes to these procedures, but it seems to me that if you were aware that Mr. Brock had a statement of fact and you had it and the clerk had it, and you decided not to then share it with the rest of us, knowing that—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No, that's not the case, Mr. Sousa, and this is the third time I'm saying this to you. I'll repeat it again.