Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

—the work of this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's fine. That is your time, and then we'll discuss the actual distribution of it.

Continue your point of order. Go ahead.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I think a point is getting confused here. Obviously, if the chair, in his capacity as chair, is sent information for the committee, he should be distributing that in a symmetrical way to all or to none.

However, clearly, all of us have different levels of information that we get from different conversations we have. That's extremely normal. Members of the government presumably have conversations with government ministers and government political staff and know things that we don't know, and we have conversations that they are not a part of. Everybody knows things that somebody else doesn't know.

The question is around the distribution of information from the committee. Those things are being conflated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I appreciate the point of order, but to be clear, I have one copy here and the clerk has a copy. Mr. Lafleur and, I'm sure, a dozen people at CBSA, and I'm sure Ms. O'Gorman, the witnesses and the witnesses' lawyer and however many people it has been distributed to....

We'll continue the conversation about distribution.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to make sure that the moment that the clerk and the chair are made aware that the information is out there.... For something as important as this, I would—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I would disagree and I'll end it there, because I'm aware that certain people have ATIPs that have been shared with them that haven't been shared with anyone else, but that's because.... It's something that if someone has done their research and received information that you have not, that's incumbent upon—

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

What I'm saying, Mr. Chair, is that at the moment that you as the chair—or the clerk—is made aware that there is information that is confidential that is being shared, I think it's important that it is shared with the rest of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I would disagree, but on the distribution of this, we will discuss among ourselves how it will be distributed. I'll explain a bit further why. There are rules around it, but I will disagree with you about that.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do I have time for Mr. Lafleur?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have three seconds, so why don't we just move to Mrs. Vignola? I'm going to try to get through the rounds so we can get to our committee business.

Go ahead, Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lafleur, during the course of your investigation, did you listen to everything our committee said and verify all witness testimony?

[Michel Lafleur]

I listened to the testimony, but that was not necessarily to verify what was said.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Was that helpful for your investigation?

[Michel Lafleur]

Yes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

Regarding the report on the Helios project, can we assume that the current situation, resulting from a confidential document being released by someone somewhere, was intended to bring the matter up for public discussion?

Essentially, can the work of our committee interfere with the conduct of the investigation or undermine its rigour?

[Michel Lafleur]

My role is to preserve the integrity of the investigation regardless of what is happening around it.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Does the release of a confidential document increase the pressure on your team or does it raise questions about the integrity of the investigation?

[Michel Lafleur]

I would say that we have to manage the public interest as regards the matter in question. The document in question was requested by your committee, and I understand that you will be discussing it. We would however like that information to remain confidential in order to preserve the integrity of the investigation.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

It is incredible that we are spending so much time on the ArriveCAN file. The application cost a lot of money, but it was just under 10% of the cost of the sponsorship scandal. We fought to have a commission of inquiry into that at the time, but it took a long time.

Thank you for being here and for the answers you were able to provide.

[Michel Lafleur]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I apologize. I had someone speaking in my ear. Was there a question toward me, or are you done, Mrs. Vignola?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mrs. Vignola has again granted her extra time to me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have about an extra five seconds.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm not sure where this wellspring of generosity came from, but I appreciate it.