Evidence of meeting #101 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
You asked that earlier, about 15 minutes ago when he stated at the opening that he had received some information from the witnesses. I am aware that the witnesses and their lawyer have a copy of it. Mr. Lafleur has it and I'm not sure how many other people at CBSA have it, but even if it was shared by the witnesses or by Mr. MacDonald or Mr. Utano, that's their right. It's their right to share it with anyone they want, but that does not mean that you have the right to see it or that anyone else does.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Mr. Chair, I'm just trying to understand. I'm asking that the committee have the right to have information shared when it is already in the hands of some people and we know that it is. It could have been appropriate for us to expand the sharing of that document—I guess that's my point—so that we all could have seen it.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I will repeat. As I said earlier, before the meeting started, I discussed this with the clerk. My opinion was that it should be shared only with the members themselves. I asked about the procedure required to do that. Before the meeting started, the clerk advised that it should be done as a motion. My intent was to do it in camera on Wednesday, but now it's been pushed ahead. If you wish, we could do a motion right now to share it with just the MPs, which is what I'm thinking, or we could share it with the broader mailing list, which is the way we generally share other issues. We could share it with the MPs with the understanding that it would remain confidential, which is what we do with documents.
However, if someone shares something that is theirs to share—if they decide to share it with you—that's their business and that is your business. It does not mean it has to be shared with everyone else until the committee decides. We were going to make a decision on this on Wednesday, as I discussed with the clerk at the beginning, and you can confirm that with her if you wish, but that decision seems to have been pushed to right now.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
It seems appropriate. I was just concerned that it has somehow been held off, knowing Mr. Brock had it. However—
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'll repeat this, Mr. Sousa. If you wish us to check with the clerk to reconfirm my discussion with her at the beginning, we will do so, Mr. Sousa. However, I'm getting a bit tired of your insinuation that some people are receiving information inappropriately from the clerk or from me.
Mr. Brock is next.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
We are wasting such valuable time with this important witness. Given the fact that we have more committee business to undertake, I'm asking that we reserve our right to recall this witness. I think all members will have a lot more questions for this individual, if the motion is passed, about the release of documents.
As far as preparation for this particular meeting goes, every member exercises their own unique due diligence. What I do in terms of preparation should not be the standard for any other member. I take this stuff very seriously, as I know my colleagues do.
There's an important point to make here: There is no proprietary interest in any witness. There is nothing preventing any member of the Liberal bench from reaching out to Cameron MacDonald or Mr. Utano on a telephone call and asking pointed questions, which is precisely what I did. I spent some time with both individuals gathering information. I'm not under any legal obligation to share that information with opposing members.
February 5th, 2024 / 12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Colleagues, are we ready to make a decision to move on, or would you like to discuss it further on Wednesday?
Again, my proposal is to share it solely with the members of Parliament at this committee.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We'll suspend for two minutes.
Please take two minutes maximum, guys.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Yes, it's a request.
Thank you for offering us a verification. Again, this is just procedural.
Can the clerk inform us of the date and time she received the statement of preliminary facts?
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
It was about a week ago.
This is the letter we were talking about last meeting.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Specifically, I mean the document you pointed to and highlighted.
What was the time and what was the date when the clerk received that big document our colleague Mr. Brock has been referring to?
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I think it was probably January 30 or February 1. We'll double-check.
We'll suspend for a moment.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
It was just to me. It went to the clerk, and the clerk forwarded it to me.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
It was on Thursday, the first, as I said.
Mr. Kusmierczyk, go ahead.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Chair, I have a serious issue with the fact that you and the clerk had this report, the statement of fact, in your possession very early last week, knowing that the author of the report was coming before this committee today, and yet there was no indication, no communication from you, to let us know that there had been communication from CBSA regarding this report.
It takes a second to sit at a computer and say, “Folks, we have Mr. Lafleur testifying on Monday. This is a heads-up that I have a report in my possession, as does the clerk, that is pertinent to his appearance before this committee.” It takes a split second, and I don't understand the logic behind not sharing that information with this committee so that we as a committee could make an informed decision as to whether we wanted to defer or delay the appearance of Mr. Lafleur and have the opportunity to look at the statement before the author, the investigator, came before the committee.
I cannot understand your logic, Mr. Chair. I have a serious issue with that lack of communication with the members of this committee on such an important issue, and your explanation doesn't fly, Mr. Chair.