Evidence of meeting #102 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:35 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay.
Besides the two individuals who are currently suspended without pay—MacDonald and Utano—were there any other allegations of misconduct with any other CBSA employee contained in that report?
6:35 p.m.
Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I would have to go back to the report at this point. We read that months ago.
6:35 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Can you go back to the report and share with this committee details of any other allegations of any other individual other than MacDonald and Utano, please, within 15 days?
6:35 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I'm not sure if we're able to do that. That would be a request probably best made to the agency.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you.
A line of questioning has just occurred relevant to an investigation that's ongoing. A line of questioning just occurred with information and details to which only people involved in that investigation are privy, so it appears to me that information has been released and has been transferred over for others to press, and this is where the problem lies. Therein lies the problem of the integrity of the investigation itself. Do you feel it's appropriate?
Mr. Hannoush, you've been interviewing and you've been meeting with the witnesses. You've been dealing with and have had some discussions with the individuals involved, both at Botler and in regard to GC Strategies. Is that correct? You just confirmed that you've had those discussions.
February 14th, 2024 / 6:35 p.m.
Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Can you repeat the question? I apologize.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
You confirmed that you have had discussions with the two witnesses in the statement of fact and that you've had discussions with the two founders of Botler.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
We're all concerned about obstruction. We're concerned about misuse of authority. We're concerned about people taking advantage of their privilege in order to contract with others. If there's some collusion, if there's some sort of wrongdoing, we want to get down to the bottom of it. The RCMP was given notice by the government relative to this very issue. The government.... Is that not correct? Who provided the RCMP with the initial request to investigate?
6:35 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
The Canada Border Services Agency informed the RCMP and, just to be clear, we made a deliberate decision to not duplicate or compromise other investigations.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Was that because you didn't want to compromise the investigation? I think that is what you just said.
6:35 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Ultimately, we did not want to duplicate work that was being done by other organizations, and we did not want to compromise what work was going on.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Absolutely, and rightly so.
When government officials and government elected officials, no less, who are now trying to get into their video conferences and displays and trying to go after the.... We want the truth; we absolutely want to get to the bottom of this, but is it necessary in Canada...? We're not in North Korea. The government doesn't control the police. The government is not in charge of forcing it to investigate or not. Is the RCMP, in your opinion, Auditor General, aware of the circumstances before us in this committee, given what they are doing with Botler?
6:40 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think it's fair to say that there's a lot of attention on what is happening, both publicly and behind the scenes, in terms of the investigation that the CBSA is conducting. I would imagine that the RCMP is watching that. We are not in a position to comment on what the RCMP—
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Rightly so; nor should a committee, and nor should elected officials. The RCMP has it within its purview to figure out if there's criminal activity at play, and this is where some are presupposing that these are criminals. That hasn't been decided. The investigation has not been completed. We need that investigation as taxpayers and as officials in government. Those who are in the bureaucracy and in the civil service all want to make certain that people are abiding by the law.
If they are not abiding by the law, after the investigation is complete and determined, be it by the RCMP or the internal investigation, then consequences will occur. By having officials or elected members playing...I don't know what they're playing, with others out there, does that prejudice the outcome? Also, is it necessary to ask the RCMP to do something that they themselves will determine?
6:40 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Our role as an independent agent of Parliament is to support the work of Parliament. We made a deliberate decision not to duplicate work that was happening in other places, but it's not for us to describe—
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Does the RCMP require our instruction? That's my point. Can they not proceed without anyone instructing them to do so? Are they independent to do the work they're there to do?
6:40 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
My understanding is that the RCMP is an independent organization. However, I would just reiterate that it's not for us to tell the RCMP what to do, and it's not for us to tell Parliament what to do.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Is it up to elected officials to tell the RCMP what to do?
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
You let him go on. I want that answer. Are elected officials entitled to tell the RCMP what to do?
