Government Operations Committee on Feb. 14th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

We're going to switch over to Mrs. Vignola.

AG Hogan and Mr. Hayes, we're just distributing a letter you wrote to us. I think that's what Mr. Bachrach was referring to. I want you to have it in case he brings it up in his interventions.

Mrs. Vignola, you have two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

This is fascinating.

I'm not the Auditor General, and I don't think I'll ever have the skills to be the Auditor General, but I do like reading, rereading and scrutinizing information that is available when it comes to government transparency.

How far did you go in your examination of the contracts and documentation for the purposes of your audit?

[Karen Hogan]

Our audit covered the period from January 1, 2019 to January 31, 2023, so we examined the documents provided for that period.

Certainly, we did do some work and have some discussions after that period, but that is the period covered by the audit.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

All right.

I see a lot of data and information, which I am gathering. Unfortunately, I'm not done analyzing it all.

Is it common for a company to receive up to three different IT consulting contracts totalling approximately a million dollars, all in a single day?

That is a genuine question. As a mere mortal, I find it astounding.

[Karen Hogan]

There are rules stipulating that contracts can't be split to avoid certain thresholds when requirements are in place.

It's hard to say whether that's normal. If the three contracts were very different and very separate, if they were for very different services and they weren't connected, it's possible. However, there are a lot of rules around contract splitting. It's important to ensure that processes are followed so that contracts aren't split.

I'm not sure whether that answer is helpful.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, because it helps me zero in on certain things as I carry out my own analysis.

I see certain contracts, and I'm wondering about one of them. It's with one company, in particular. Three contracts were awarded for similar services on the same day by the same organization.

The reason I ask is that I find it really surprising.

Thank you for enlightening me as I delve into all of this.

[Karen Hogan]

What we look for in a situation like that is documentation to support why the contracts were awarded.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead, for two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will return to my previous question regarding the letter sent from the committee.

To refresh folks' memories, on October 3, 2022, my colleague, Mr. Johns, moved the following motion:

That, in the context of its study of outsourcing of contracts, the committee write to the Auditor General of Canada to recommend an audit of the implementation of the Treasury Board's Guide to Cost Estimating by departments in relation to make-or-buy decisions and oversight of the Treasury Board with respect to the same.

In November, Ms. Hogan, your office wrote to the committee and confirmed receipt of the letter. You said that you would keep those topics in mind when you audited the ArriveCAN app.

I would note that the context of the motion that was passed by the committee dealt with the study on outsourcing that the committee is undertaking. That study has been expanded to include contracting out to the big six consulting companies.

As much as you did touch on these topics in the context of the ArriveCAN app, the larger question of whether these policies are being upheld across government procurement is still outstanding.

I'll ask again. Is your office willing to undertake an audit on the Treasury Board's guide to cost estimating and make-or-buy decisions regarding the oversight of Treasury Board in the context of government outsourcing to the big six consulting companies?

I think it's a question that is very much in the public interest, so I'm keen to hear what your office's response would be now that the ArriveCAN audit is done.

[Andrew Hayes]

I'm sorry. I apologize to the person who puts on the light. I kept pressing if off when they were putting it on.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I've done that myself.

[Andrew Hayes]

In response to this letter, we signalled that we were going to be doing an audit of ArriveCAN and that we were going to be determining the scope. This was not included in the scope for the ArriveCAN audit. However, we covered it in a different way in our audit, “Modernizing Information Technology Systems”, which was tabled in the fall.

We did talk about the process and the guidance that Treasury Board gives to help departments make decisions around IT systems. It's not exactly about make-or-buy decisions, but to a certain degree that is going to be covered in our future audit that we will be tabling, we expect, in May.

The point I'm making here is simply that while it's not covered in the ArriveCAN audit, you can find some helpful information in the audit that we tabled in the fall.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

If I may, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Be really quick.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

—it feels as if there are little tidbits here and there, but what the committee was after was a specific audit on the topic of make-or-buy decisions and the Treasury Board's guidelines, particularly with reference to the big six consulting companies, which are getting hundreds of millions, if not more, in government contracts, many of them granted non-competitively. There's a real question there around whether the public is getting value for its money.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have to wrap up, Mr. Bachrach. You're way past time.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay, thanks.

We'll have Mr. Brock and then Mr. Sousa, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'll go back to you, Auditor General.

In light of the shocking revelations revealed today that GC Strategies received a quarter of a billion dollars under the Justin Trudeau government for a myriad of contracts, probably very similar in nature to that of the ArriveCAN scandal, does that, in and of itself, heighten your suspicions with respect to GC Strategies, and if it does, does that heighten them enough to notify the RCMP to expand their investigation to ArriveCAN specifically?

[Karen Hogan]

As I said previously, I've spoken to the RCMP. We'll be happy to open our file, should they issue a formal request, so they can see the documentation and the evidence that we have around our audit.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

When you had those discussions with the RCMP, they never closed off that possibility. They didn't say to you, for instance, I'm sorry, Auditor General, we're not interested, or anything like that.

[Karen Hogan]

No. I followed up the meeting with a letter on January 26, and I have not heard from them since then.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Did President O'Gorman ever confirm with you any suspensions of any other CBSA employees as a result of your findings?

[Andrew Hayes]

We are not aware of any suspensions. We know that the two individuals who have been discussed at this committee previously have been suspended by their organizations, but we're not aware of any within the CBSA.