Government Operations Committee on Feb. 28th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We have Mr. Bains, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our departmental witnesses from Public Works and Government Services for joining us.

I want to go back to the Auditor General's report.

I asked questions to the Auditor General. Who were the officials that needed to be reported to? Where does the information go? How far does it go? Are officials involved? She alluded to the fact that it goes up to the deputy. Being a deputy minister here, you're getting all this information.

At the same time, the Auditor General indicated there were several documents missing. Is there not a responsibility to identify the fact that there are missing documents? Again, my colleague across the way is framing similar questions. I wanted to know about.... You said you're an administrator. As an administrator, you would be really keen on following the processes that are in place.

Are our administrators here failing to follow the processes, or are the processes not clear in this specific situation? Let's talk about this with ArriveCAN.

[Arianne Reza]

In procurement, we strive very hard on the processes, to follow them and to make sure they're replicable so we can ensure consistency. One of those goals is to minimize and prevent irregularities. Process cannot eliminate misconduct altogether. We can rely on it. We can make sure that it's clear and transparent and that there are guidelines and a framework around how to follow it, because the desire is that the outcome of following the process is open, fair and transparent.

We've spoken a lot about missing documentation. I came to OGGO in the November or December timeline, and I said very clearly that I authorized two of the contracts to GC Strategies. There's documentation to support it. The AG herself referred to the challenge function we did at that time.

Again, it's making sure we have the documentation on file to be able to demonstrate we follow and enforce the rules and guidelines that are put in place by the system around procurement.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Now I'm looking back. When did you notice that these processes weren't...? Where are the missing documents? Where were the processes not followed? Who didn't follow them?

If we listen to what the Auditor General said, each department is responsible for its own contracts. We can't have the Auditor General, of course, verifying if every department has done their work. I have been in this committee, the mighty OGGO, which the chair likes to say, for only a short time. We've done a number of different studies. We've looked at things like the Governor General's trip. I'm sure that the Governor General would be happy with a club sandwich and maybe an apple juice, but we had beef Wellington served.

Which administrators are making these decisions? That's what I'm trying to get to. These processes, are they in place? Are they being followed? How deep do we have to look at these processes? What other measures can we put in place to make sure that our administrators are following them?

[Arianne Reza]

I would say that it's a shared responsibility. Procurement has many steps to it: solicitation processes, procurement processes, evaluation, negotiation, contract approval and contract administration. Many of those responsibilities fall with the client departments who have a budget, a need and a priority to do something. They will, depending on the dollar value, come to PSPC for assistance with that procurement process. We provide guidance and, to a certain extent, where possible, oversight to ensure that it's fair, open and transparent.

It is through the many different delegated levels of authority, the many different contract authorities and the client responsibilities of managers signing off on the goods that they have received that you are able to start to see the whole landscape of that shared accountability.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

What are you or someone else in PSPC signing off on? What information is included?

[Arianne Reza]

I can give you an example of what I authorized for two contracts that are related to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry; let me just interrupt.

You have only about 20 seconds. You can be brief or perhaps offer it in writing.

Please go ahead.

[Arianne Reza]

I can be very brief.

There's a contract authority form. For example, I authorized the contract to GC Strategies as and when needed for CBSA to have IT staff augmentation. They verified that the rates were competitive. It was pulled from a pre-qualified instrument. They were a vendor in good standing at that time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Bains.

Mrs. Vignola, please, you have two and and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Ms. Reza, when warnings were given to CBSA in 2021, who was the minister of PSPC?

I just want a reminder.

[Arianne Reza]

Which fiscal year are you talking about?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm talking about the period from 2019 to 2021.

[Arianne Reza]

During that time, I believe it was Anita Anand and Filomena Tassi.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Were Minister Anand and Minister Tassi made aware of the cost overruns and warnings that PSPC had given to the CBSA about ArriveCAN?

[Arianne Reza]

No, but I would like to explain something very important that I have never had the opportunity to talk about.

At that time, in 2020 and 2021, there were no contracts for the ArriveCAN application.

Some contracts were awarded to enable the Canada Border Services Agency to obtain information technology services in all its priority sectors.

It would have been very difficult to talk about ArriveCAN contracts before announcing that the application was being developed.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In short, the Canada Border Services Agency had access to information technology funds and could use them as it saw fit.

Is it possible, then, that ArriveCAN cost more because it is difficult to distinguish, among the amounts spent on information technology services, which ones were really used to develop ArriveCAN and which ones were used to buy computer equipment or update systems?

Did I understand the comment you just made correctly?

[Arianne Reza]

I think the nuance is obvious.

We started helping the Canada Border Services Agency during the pandemic. In April 2020, it told us that it needed additional internal resources to create the necessary technology to ensure that the services offered in its priority sectors were safe. The services covered included commercial cargo processing, the customs mail centre and those provided by border officers.

The first contracts that were awarded did not mention ArriveCAN.

As you may have noticed, the Auditor General of Canada said the same thing. She was unable to determine how much of the money spent on technology services was used for what purpose.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Ms. Reza. That's past your time.

Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Reza, PSPC was initially opposed to the CBSA's use of a non-competitive contract for ArriveCAN. What happened after you provided that advice to them?

[Arianne Reza]

I actually think the Auditor General at PACP yesterday.... The deputy auditor general suggested that it would be helpful to share the email trail to be able to demonstrate.

Let's just walk through what it looked like. The CBSA approached the procurement authority and asked to have a sole-source contract or a non-competitive contract that was multi-year. The officer pushed back and said that it would not be within the frame of an emergency, the pandemic, so that was reduced to one year and the cost was substantially reduced.

The second thing was that the per diems were renegotiated downwards to be able to be more competitive and in line with what we saw in that category.

The third thing was that there was a pretty thorough challenge on the sole-source justification the CBSA provided, indicating that it had a compelling need for this. When the CBSA came back, we asked it to demonstrate the compelling need. We also shared it with our legal counsel to ensure that it really met that threshold.

In the end, it's their decision and their compelling argument was to keep the border open.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The ombudsman noted in his report that there was a gap in emails between the CBSA and PSPC. What happened to those emails? Why is there a gap?

[Arianne Reza]

I am unsure if that gap is related to this sole-source contract. I think it is related to another contract later on in 2021, if I read his report correctly. That being said, I've also asked for follow-up.

I would bring to the committee's attention that during April, May, June and onwards in 2020, all PSPC and government employees were working from home. We didn't actually have a VPN. We didn't have the network. There were rolling blackouts, so people didn't actually have access to their emails. We had to come on at certain times. I've wondered if that was part of the issue.

I've also wondered whether there are actual hard-copy files. In normal circumstances, there would be paper documentation in a file cabinet somewhere at PSPC, so we're looking at a different...and going back for it to see if we can find more of that information trail. We are doing that work as we speak.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Can I assume that those will be provided to the committee when they're located?

I can't imagine that they don't exist somewhere. Regardless of the situation, these things are out there somewhere. Could you table them with the committee when they're located?

[Arianne Reza]

We will table what we have now, because we think this will also be relevant in terms of seeing what the contract-approval documentation looks like, as well as the back-and-forth between the departments to have a sense of the roles and responsibilities. We will continue to add more as we go.