Evidence of meeting #107 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was arrivecan.
A video is available from Parliament.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you very much for the question.
I think this is something we can look at and take on to see whether or not we can fill this need, and whether there would be value for the client departments.
Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Thank you, Mr. Jowhari.
Thank you to our witnesses for being with us today.
I hope you're feeling better, Ms. Reza.
I'm going to focus a bit on some of the documentation issues that have really come to light.
Among the common themes between the reports from the Auditor General and the procurement ombud is that lack of documentation. There's no written justification for many decisions and a lack of specifics in task authorizations.
Considering that the Auditor General referred to this as some of the worst bookkeeping she'd ever seen, what is PSPC, as the contracting authority, doing to ensure that documentation is appropriately managed?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
We're doing several things. We have, of course, been looking over our own documentation practices and our record-keeping, because this is a very difficult situation. Procurement officers are very well trained. They do an excellent job. This was in a particular time and place when they didn't have access to their normal workstations with their computers, their files and the supply manual.
What we have under way now is an e-procurement system that will shift what is normally a very paper-based approach to procurement into an electronic repository. We're hoping this will provide an evidentiary trail. Even more so, PSPC is taking measures within its own procurement shop to be able to have a senior executive responsible for looking at procurement documentation and ensuring that there are training and tools available to the officers to make sure they're well trained.
Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Thank you.
Of course, another big concern is addressing cost overruns and the price tags. You mentioned some of the steps you've taken since November to address some of these issues. Can you elaborate more specifically on how this is going to address costs?
Starting with the fact that you've taken away the delegated authority for task authorizations from all departments and agencies, with new rules, agreements and training put into place, can you elaborate on that specifically and what it would mean with these new agreements now in place?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you very much for the question.
Hopefully, it's really going to provide, from a procurement perspective, one of the key things we heard from the procurement ombudsman and the Auditor General, which was the quality of the documentation around the task authorization. We're hoping this will bring a lot more hygiene within the system to be clear on what is being requested and called up, as well as why there is a need.
That will hopefully provide more visibility in terms of accounting for various resources and services, and really, fundamentally, provide more support to the client departments, whose responsibility it is to account for the budgets and who have the authority to spend the money.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I would like to give notice of the following motion. I'll read it very slowly.
That, given that: (i) the Auditor General has found that the ArriveCAN application has cost taxpayers at least $60 million and that the Canada Border Services Agency’s management of public funds with respect to the ArriveCAN application has been disastrous; (ii) the Canada Border Services Agency is currently working on implementing an official, digital system of record to apply international trade policies for commercial duties and taxes for importers and trade chain partners, known as the CBSA Assessment and Revenue Management (CARM), and that this new system will come into effect for everyone on May 13, 2024, despite a short trial period and limited testing; (iii) the government procurement website canadabuys.canada.ca states that contracts awarded to Deloitte for the development of the CARM project have a minimum value of several hundred million dollars; Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(c), the committee A. orders the Canada Border Services Agency to produce, in both official languages, unredacted copies of: a) all signed contracts relating to the development and implementation of the CARM project since the beginning of 2018; b) all CBSA communications relating to the 2018 Deloitte technical specifications; c) all CBSA communications relating to CARM Release 2 testing since October 2023; provided the documents are submitted to the committee clerk no later than 15 days following the adoption of this motion; and B. once the documents have been received by the committee that it invite the President of the Canada Border Services Agency to testify at a 2-hour meeting to answer the committee’s questions about the contract for the development and implementation of the CARM.
As I said, I am simply giving notice of this motion, which has to do with the Canada Border Services Agency. This is another application that seems to be related to overspending and uncontrolled spending.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you.
Are you reading it into the record for future tabling?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Wonderful.
You're at three minutes and 40 seconds, so you have two and a half minutes left.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Reza, we have learned in recent weeks that, despite the Canada Border Services Agency clearly and specifically asking questions about the ArriveCAN expenditures, tasks and contracts, the agency did whatever it wanted.
Does Public Services and Procurement Canada have ways to tighten the screws a little more and to force a department that awards contracts to actually follow the rules and policies surrounding the awarding of contracts?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you very much for your question.
It's something we think about a lot because at the moment we are forced to take on a shared role.
As we heard earlier, Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, is responsible for the procurement process. However, if one of its client departments wants to use its own budget and justify awarding its own contracts, we have to find a balance.
In the case you brought to our attention, where there was a challenge, I want to add that the CBSA accepted a lot of our advice. They started by asking for a three-year contract. We said no because of the pandemic. We told the agency that it would be more reasonable to award a contract for three, four, five months or a year. We have negotiated with the agency a reduction in the per diem rate. In the end, it decided that it needed this tool.
As you just proposed, perhaps the Treasury Board and PSPC should be more involved in the final decision.
February 28th, 2024 / 6:40 p.m.
Conservative
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Reza, a July 2023 article in The Globe and Mail included a text message from you regarding the November 2022 appearance of the CBSA at this committee. I wasn't on the committee at the time, but they've published this text that you sent after that committee appearance. It said, “Alright. CBSA took a lot of questions. Members pushed a bit on GC Strategies but did not gain much ground. The bad news is that they ended by passing a resolution asking for OPO to investigate ArriveCan contracting”.
Why was that bad news, given your government's commitment to transparency and given the fact that, in your opening statement, you said you welcomed the OPO's recommendations? I'm just unclear why it's bad news that this committee moved to ask for an investigation of the ArriveCAN contracting.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I have to say that I have often regretted my words. I'll say frankly, at heart, I'm an administrator. We had just been through the AG report for McKinsey, the OPO report for McKinsey, and every time there's a new request we have to pivot resources to support it. We have to make sure we have translation capacity to submit it to the House bilingually. We have to make sure we have ATIP people on standby.
I responded in the heat of the moment in terms of the workload as an administrator to make sure that we had the resources to support it. As the months progressed, the value is now much more evident, and again, it was really written from the fact that I was thinking about it as an administrative burden in the heat of the many other audits that were under way.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Fair enough. I guess I read something else into it. It sounds like you don't want the committee to get to the bottom of what happened, but I'll move on to the next question.
In your opening statement, you talked a little bit about the findings of the procurement ombudsperson, who found that certain practices related to the procurement of professional services were “inconsistent with government policy|” and “threatened” the government’s commitment to fairness, openness and transparency.”
You've accepted these findings from the OPO. Does that not indicate that your department failed to respect government policy? They were “inconsistent with government policy”, and the department that was responsible was your department. Did the department fail to uphold government policy?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I think that when we looked at the OPO report, the procurement ombudsman's report, we agreed with the recommendations. In fact, when I looked at that statement in my opening remarks, I thought often about the poor consideration we gave of best value.
It's a little bit of a shared responsibility in procurement. You ask if it's 100% on one or the other. Both essential organizations—PSPC and the client department of CBSA—have shared some of the burden of this.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You spoke to accepting the recommendations. This is a finding, I believe, not a recommendation. Do you also accept the findings of the ombudsperson?
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Absolutely. The findings are around the—
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
One of the findings is that the department's actions were inconsistent with government policy, and to me that seems like a fairly serious thing.
What I'm trying to get at is accountability. In your view, what accountability does the department have for not upholding the government's policy around their commitment to fairness, openness and transparency?
