Government Operations Committee on March 14th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I call this meeting to order, with a gavel and all.

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to meeting 109 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(c) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 17, 2022, the committee is meeting to consider matters related to the ArriveCAN application.

As always, this is a reminder not to have your headphones next to a microphone, as doing so can cause feedback and potential injury to our very valued interpreters.

Quickly, before we start, as was the case yesterday, Mr. Anthony's lawyer, Mr. Brent Timmons, will be present with his client, but he is not a witness and thus he may not address the committee. Counsel may be on the Zoom call with the witness and they may speak directly to their client but not to the committee or to committee members.

I would note for committee members that they should only question the witness and not speak to or ask questions of the lawyer, who is not appearing as a witness.

Mr. Anthony, if you do require time to speak to your lawyer, keep your camera on but just mute yourself and indicate that you will be conferring with the lawyer. That's fine.

My intent, as it was yesterday, is that we will do a 10-minute suspension after the first two rounds—so after about one hour—and then after the second hour, we will do a five-minute suspension.

Also my intent, as it was yesterday, is to have our clerk swear in the witness. If the committee is fine with that, we'll have our clerk go ahead with that.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Thomas Bigelow]

Mr. Anthony, as per the email this morning, you have a choice between either an oath or a solemn affirmation. Please let me know which one you'd like to proceed with.

[Darren Anthony, Partner, GC Strategies]

I'd like an oath, please.

[The Clerk]

Great.

I'll read the text to you, sir, and you may respond.

Do you swear that the evidence you shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

[Darren Anthony]

Yes.

[The Clerk]

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Barrett, is there something?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes, sir.

Before we proceed, yesterday at the end of the meeting it was clear that there was an undertaking by the witness to provide documents before nine o'clock this morning.

Mr. Firth had committed to providing us names of those he negotiated with at CBSA to write his own contract and the names of government officials who provided glowing endorsements on his website, which he had first undertaken to provide to the committee 16 months ago.

I'm wondering if you can update the committee on what's been received and when that will be circulated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I've received maybe about one-third or 25% of the promised information. The clerk has received it. It is going to translation, so hopefully it will be circulated tomorrow or the day after.

The balance of the information promised by nine o'clock has not been provided. We have a promise from Mr. Firth that the balance will be sent in a separate email, but we haven't received it yet. When we do, it will be translated and forwarded to the committee.

On that point, I want to bring up something. I promised to get back to the committee yesterday regarding questions put to the previous witness that were not answered.

I want to read a note directly from our law clerk.

I understand that one of the reasons given by the witness for not providing certain answers was that the matter was potentially related to an RCMP investigation.

It is up to the committee to decide whether a question should be put to the witness and whether the potential for, or an actual, police investigation is sufficient reason for not answering the question. ... That said, ultimately, it is for the committee to decide. As mentioned in House of Commons Procedure and Practice, a committee can report to the House a situation where a witness refuses to answer its question.

Basically, it is up to the committee—and not for anyone else—to decide whether that is a relevant reason not to answer.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Chair, on that, if I may, regarding information that was requested from the witness yesterday, for example, on who provided the testimonials, are you able to tell us if that information has been furnished, even if you can't circulate it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No, I can't provide that specific information, because it hasn't been translated yet.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Then you're not able to tell us who was at the table when—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let me double-check with the clerk, but I don't think so.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

—GC Strategies negotiated their own contract.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I can't release specifics because probably about 75% of it has not been received yet.

We are going to go ahead if you're finished, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Anthony, I will give you the floor for about five minutes for your opening statement, please, sir.

Go ahead.

[Darren Anthony]

This is my second time before the committee. As you are aware, I have been compelled to testify here today. However, I have always been willing to answer the questions of the committee.

I understand that I have been called to appear to answer questions pertaining to the ArriveCAN study. I will answer all questions for which I have the knowledge to answer as best I can. Please understand that my inability to respond should not be misinterpreted as my not answering the question.

I was simply not involved in our federal government contracting processes with the Canada Border Services Agency, the Canadian Digital Service, the Public Health Agency of Canada or Health Canada. I have no contacts or relationships within those departments. I have no contact with any clients involved with those departments, or contracts, other than security for resources.

This has been a difficult time for me and my company. In my family, we have also had our personal privacy invaded with images and the address of our home published across the media. We have been suspended from all government contracts, and our subcontractors are not able to work under these existing contracts. My private sector work has dwindled to nothing. This will have an irreparable impact on my future and my family's future. A career that I've spent 20 years building has been ruined.

Aside from the obvious reasons for not wanting to be isolated from one another during our testimony, it's also true that we requested to give testimony together, as Mr. Firth handled all projects related to COVID and the pandemic response, so I have very little to offer as insight into this committee's current work. I was not involved in any of the contracting processes for the projects. My involvement was limited to acting as chief security officer.

As CSO, I was responsible for working with resources to obtain required documentation and file their security clearances. This includes getting their fingerprinting and document control numbers completed, setting up each of the resource's portals in the OLISS system and helping them through the process to have their background history check done. Once the information was submitted, I would verify it and submit it. For each successful security clearance, I would receive a briefing form, which I would pass along to the resource, and I would notify Mr. Firth to confirm their eligibility for work.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much, sir.

We'll start with Mr. Barrett, please, for six minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Sir, I see that you're in the same lawyer's boardroom as your partner was yesterday. You're with the same legal counsel. Is that correct?

[Darren Anthony]

Correct.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Are you able to ask your lawyer at what time Mr. Firth will fulfill his promise to this committee to table 100% of the information that we requested by nine a.m., which is a time that he agreed to?

Can you tell us? Maybe confer with your lawyer and get us that answer.

[Darren Anthony]

I'm not going to discuss my discussions with my lawyer.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

At what time will the information that has been requested of a partner of your company be furnished to this committee?

[Darren Anthony]

I'm not aware. I don't know.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You don't know.

Some of that information was requested 16 months ago, and there was an undertaking made then. Yesterday I told your partner that I didn't believe that he would provide by it this morning. He said that of course he'd provide it. That wasn't the case, but he proved me right.

Your partner also said yesterday that everybody was lying, except for him and you. He said the Auditor General was lying, and the procurement ombudsman, The Globe and Mail, the National Post—even the CBC and Global News. All of us were lying. He offered no proof to that effect, while we offered proof that he lied to this committee, as I just did in terms of proof, since your partner has not furnished this committee with the evidence that he said he'd undertake to provide by nine a.m.

Do you agree with Mr. Firth that the Auditor General's report is incorrect?

[Darren Anthony]

I would refer to his testimony with regard to the numbers that we were able to supply to the Auditor General.