Government Operations Committee on March 20th, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I can't do unanimous consent. I will be subbed in by Garnett Genuis.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's fine. Okay. Wonderful.

Minister, thank you very much for joining us.

We are suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, everyone. We are back.

Welcome back, Minister Anand, for...like, the 30th time to OGGO under various departments. We'll have bells, but hopefully we'll get through the opening statement.

Just quickly, everyone, depending on how much time we lose for the bells, we might adjust the minutes in the second round to four, four, two, two, four and four again.

Minister, the floor is yours. Please go ahead.

[Anita Anand, President of the Treasury Board]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that the lands on which we are gathered are part of the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

I'm joined today by members of my department to give an overview of the supplementary estimates (C) 2023-24.

Supplementary estimates (C) total $13.2 billion. This amount includes a $4.3‑billion increase to planned statutory expenditures. The government is asking Parliament to approve an additional $8.9 billion in voted appropriations.

In addition to planned spending, these estimates include $11.9 million in frozen allotments. These are essentially reductions to departmental budgets throughout the year. This year's amount includes $500 million in departmental spending reductions under the refocusing government spending initiative.

Recent reports on government contracts and actions by some individuals is cause for serious concern. As the Auditor General confirmed, there are rules to ensure healthy procurement and management practices throughout government, but many of them were not respected.

Mr. Chair, earlier today I announced a series of actions that the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat will take to strengthen our oversight of departmental practices to support effective and streamlined management across government.

These actions include the immediate release of an updated “Manager's Guide” when procuring professional services to ensure that managers are receiving a clear statement of work and doing due diligence to maintain the integrity of the procurement, including not committing to any payments before those items have been received; embedding certain elements of the manager's guide within Treasury Board's mandatory procedures to strengthen the accountability of a manager's role in procurement; and releasing a new risk and compliance process, which will assess government-wide trends, risks and individual departmental performance, and I will say will also include a horizontal comprehensive audit across government departments. Also, there will be a reviewing of the directive on conflict of interest to ensure that the requirements are clear and effective and to ensure that more oversight, if needed, will occur.

Improvements to the proactive disclosure of government contracts on the open data portal will also be part of this emphasis. We want to make sure that we have transparency in government contracting, and that will include on the portal itself.

Canadians expect their government to invest their money wisely and responsibly. Together with Minister Duclos and his team, we will ensure that the leaders of our public service manage their organizations efficiently and in a manner that maintains public confidence.

But parliamentary scrutiny and approval of expenditure plans are only part of the equation: Canadians expect us to execute effectively, and maintaining public confidence in democratic institutions must be our priority, especially at this moment in time. We will continue to step up to play that role.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll be able to get everyone's six minutes in.

We'll start with Mrs. Kusie, please. Go ahead.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister, it would be difficult for me to express a greater level of disappointment than I feel on behalf of Canadians today.

First of all, this year we have a $40-billion deficit, and, as you know, I hold you personally responsible, as you are the one who signs the cheques, who releases the money from the Government of Canada.

Second, we received the report from the Parliamentary Budget Officer regarding the $500 million. The two greatest line items, Minister, are lapsed funds and departmental reserves—hardly new savings, hardly a safe place for Canadians, Minister.

Then, Minister, of course we know today that you released these guidelines because apparently your guidelines of October 5, 2023, didn't work. We also received in the media today the news of $5 million in the first wave—only the first wave—of fraudulent billing found in contracting. We know what's been going on with ArriveCAN scam and GC Strategies. We know what's been going on with Dalian.

I want you to tell Canadians today how many federal employees are also collecting contracts with the federal government. Give me that number, please. How many federal employees are also collecting contracts with the federal government? Do you have that number for me today, please?

[Anita Anand]

There is an RCMP investigation relating to the employees, as mentioned by Minister Duclos. In addition, we have a call-out through the comptroller general's office for a cross-government comprehensive list of items, as requested in your question.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

You don't know the number. We don't know the number right now of how many federal employees are double-dipping, who have these jobs with the federal government and are also collecting funds through contracts with the federal government.

Minister, as my next question, can you identify how much of the $5 million that was announced today in the media by Bill Curry in The Globe and Mail is attributed to the ArriveCAN scam? How much of the $5 million is involved in the ArriveCAN scandal?

[Anita Anand]

Those items, on my understanding, do not fall under my purview, do not relate to the supplier you mentioned.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

You're responsible for all of the money. You must have an idea.

[Anita Anand]

I responded to the question by saying that the items that you mentioned are not related,.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I think Canadians would think that they are related, because it is money going out of the Treasury Board, of which you are the president.

We understand that $5 million was just the first wave. Can you tell Canadians today how much more they can expect of this? How much more in the second, third, fourth and fifth waves will we see, in addition to this $5 million that has been fraudulently billed?

[Anita Anand]

Actually, the Auditor General pointed out that the rules exist to address any situations of this nature in the public service and that generally speaking, they are followed. However, in the case of ArriveCAN and the CBSA, they were not. That's exactly why Jean-Yves Duclos and I announced today that we are taking measures to ensure that the Public Service adheres to its responsibilities under the directive on conflict of interest, as well as the manager's guide to professional services, which we are updating to ensure that there is value for money for the Canadian taxpayer every single time.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What's also concerning, Minister, is that if you look at these numbers, they actually predate the pandemic. They go back to 2018. This would actually be major fraud that's been occurring within your government since 2018. Can you confirm that this is even prepandemic? This isn't related to what was necessary in critical times, but goes back to prepandemic times. Can you confirm that, please?

[Anita Anand]

I will not dispute what the Auditor General or the PBO are referring to in their respective reports. What I am doing, from a Treasury Board perspective, is taking a proactive approach to ensure that we have the rules in place so that public servants have the necessary oversight and accountability.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I would say that is far more reactive than proactive.

The Department of National Defence—and I will, of course, remind the Canadian public that this was the station you held prior to being in this position—says that there is no rule stopping a federal government employee from having contracts with the government. Now, as the Treasury Board president, can you say that this is the policy of the federal government?

[Anita Anand]

Actually, that is absolutely false. Section 7.1 of the directive on conflict of interest—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Why is it occurring?

[Anita Anand]

—says that there are consequences for non-compliance. Anyone employed in the federal government who has not complied with the requirements of the directive on conflict of interest can be terminated, so there's a requirement to disclose conflicts, and if they are not disclosed or if the disclosure is inadequate, they can be fired.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

As the key minister for this portfolio and for overseeing this, have you asked your officials how many employees would possibly be in this position?

[Anita Anand]

Of course I am concerned with all federal public servants. We have about 300,000 such public servants, and many of them are unionized. Through my officials, I work closely with all deputy ministers across departments to ensure that there is compliance with the rules. That is the role that Treasury Board will continue to play.

Where there's not, there should be consequences, and that's what we are doing by updating the manager's guide on professional services.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I'll close with Dalian . Dalian was involved in the procurement department, the Treasury Board and the Department of National Defence, three positions that you have held. Were you familiar with Dalian? Were you aware, being responsible for those three portfolios, that they were completing this type of contracting and double-dipping?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid I have to cut you off. We are out of time. Perhaps you can answer in the next round, which begins with Ms. Atwin.

Ms. Atwin, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you to the officials for being with us today as well.

Perhaps just as a refresher for our committee, can you explain what the role of the Treasury Board is? What is your primary objective, and what can you explain specifically as it pertains to procurement?

[Anita Anand]

The Treasury Board president is the chair of the Treasury Board, which, generally speaking, comprises a handful of ministers who review all policy and rules that are being implemented by the federal government and oversees, from an accountability standpoint, the implementation of federal policies that cabinet has adopted. We undertake a risk-based analysis every single time and we ensure that accountability measures are in place.

In addition to that, we make sure that we are greening government. We are ensuring the digital transformation of government. We are also supporting diversity and inclusion in the public service, and I recently announced supports for Black public servants in that respect.

We have a number of initiatives at Treasury Board, but, generally speaking, we are overseeing the prudent expenditure of taxpayer dollars.