Evidence of meeting #111 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was first.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wojo Zielonka  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Finance Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Arianne Reza  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Scott Jones  President, Shared Services Canada
Anita Anand  President of the Treasury Board
Annie Boudreau  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Francis Trudel  Associate Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Thomas Bigelow

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

Thank you, Parm, for bringing to this committee the important voices of your constituents.

It's obviously the case that many middle-class families in your riding will benefit or have benefited from the important activities of the construction industry. We need them and their workers to do all the right things they're currently doing in B.C. and in your riding.

As you pointed out, there's great news on that. The Federal Prompt Payment for Construction Work Act now in place is making sure that it takes fewer than 28 calendar days for construction companies to be paid upon sending their invoice. This is remarkable, because it's above the existing norm. That was a 30-day rule, which was already achieved in 90% of the cases. Now it's going to be, in all cases, in 28 days or less. That also incites and even demands that subcontractors will be paid rapidly following payments to contractors. Subcontractors need to be paid no more than seven days after they invoice the contractors, and the sub-subcontractors get the same treatment by a subcontractor.

It's all part of a series of positive actions that support the construction industry. They get paid faster for the important work they do, which reduces all sorts of uncertainty and costs. It makes them able to pay their workers more rapidly, so it makes things a lot easier for them.

We know reducing the cost of constructing homes, in particular in your riding, is absolutely essential to address the housing crisis in Canada.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Thank you for that.

To follow up on that, what impact will this have on federal infrastructure projects?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

Well, that's another great point you're making. Obviously, as we just said, constructing new homes in your riding is essential for middle-class families and many other families.

It's also very important for the federal government to partner appropriately with the construction industry across Canada. We need their support to maintain, renovate and construct buildings for the federal government. They will be a lot more willing and able to work with the federal government if they know they will be paid on time. The subcontractors will also be more willing to work with contractors if they know as well that they will be paid on time by the contractors.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC

I'll go to a shorter question. Hopefully, you can answer.

Can you speak about the controls in place to ensure there's no political interference in the selection of companies bidding for contracts?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

This is so important, and it's so good to point to.

There shouldn't be. We don't want it to be the case that there is political interference in the choice of which company is awarded a contract. That's why accountability requires ministers and their offices to detach themselves from political interference in contractual arrangements, including the choice of contractors at the federal government level. We expect that to be the case.

That's also the case at PSPC and elsewhere in the federal government.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Great.

Colleagues, we have about three minutes left, so I will suspend. We will be back right after the vote. Customarily, it's five minutes when the vote is announced, so we will be starting after that.

Minister, are you staying in the room and voting virtually?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Chair, could we ask for UC to vote from here, and then once everybody has voted, we'll continue the questioning?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

If that works.... Oh, I can't, because of Larry.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

I can't. I'm sorry.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

No. That's fair.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

One of the apps is not working, so we will suspend.

We have three minutes until it starts, and then it's 10 minutes.

If it's fine with everyone, once everyone has voted, we will start up again, because we have the minister only until 5:30. Does that work for everyone?

Yes. Perfect. We'll do that.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We are back. Thank you for the countdown. I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding as we work around this.

We are now with Mrs. Vignola, please, for five minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Duclos, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us today.

Mr. Duclos, the Department of Public Works and Government Services is asking for nearly $800,000 to fund a cybersecurity certification program for defence contractors. It’s a horizontal line item from the 2023 federal budget.

I am wondering about this. Is cybersecurity not already in place? Why was this not already planned? Does it need improvement? Is there danger here?

Why do we suddenly need to increase funding for cybersecurity, particularly in the area of defence?

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

Thank you. That is a good question.

In fact, this is not a sudden need, but an additional need. Obviously, many cybersecurity mechanisms and investments already exist, including at the Department of National Defence. We must take into account what’s happening throughout the world when we consider the dematerialization of information and trade, or even threats we’re seeing in many countries. I don’t need to provide more details, because I think everyone knows what I am talking about. In this context, investing more into cybersecurity, including at the Department of National Defence, is necessary.

These are therefore investments in addition to existing investments.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you.

Looking at vote 1c, these are operating expenditures. Am I to understand it’s for additional human resources?

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

You’ve sprung a pop quiz on me. I used to have all of the different vote numbers memorized.

Can someone quickly tell me what vote 1c corresponds to?

5 p.m.

Wojo Zielonka Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Finance Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Yes. It’s mainly for human resources.

March 20th, 2024 / 5 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you.

Furthermore, I see that Shared Services Canada is requesting a transfer of $810,895 for operating expenditures and $689,105 in capital expenditures for the Canada Border Services Agency’s Assessment and Revenue Management project. This project made some headlines recently, due to the small number of tests conducted and the brief testing period.

Can you assure me that the Canada Border Services Agency’s Assessment and Revenue Management project will not be another example like Phoenix, with a system launching in spite of a too-short testing period and inconclusive results?

Can we be sure that the investments we make into this application won’t undermine overall trade or tax collection at the border?

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

I will say two things.

First of all, the objective you just described is indeed the most important objective. We must do better than what is already in place, again in a context of automating and digitizing processes and data.

Secondly, when it comes to the more technical aspect of transferring $810,895 and $689,105, if you like, we can explain exactly why those amounts were requested. It’s for the purposes of budgetary rigour and integrity. It’s to maintain the way we generally work when the margins are modest between budgets—we are indeed talking about rather modest amounts—and adjustments need to be made.

Mr. Zielonka may want to add something.

5 p.m.

Arianne Reza Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

I think that falls more under Shared Services Canada.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

Ah, sorry. It’s Shared Services—

5 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Excuse me for interrupting you for a few seconds, but I want to make sure I understand correctly.

The project will be deployed in May, if I understood correctly. What I am hearing is that, after the investments were done, in spite of the very short testing period and somewhat conclusive tests, the project will be deployed anyway, regardless of what happens. I don’t want us to end up in another situation like with Phoenix.

Can you assure me this will not open the door to fraud at the border?

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Yves Duclos Liberal Québec, QC

That’s an important question. I will ask Mr. Jones to talk about the transfer and budgetary readjustments, on the one hand, and the way we plan to implement everything over the next few months, on the other hand.

5 p.m.

Scott Jones President, Shared Services Canada

Thank you.

It is important to note that Shared Services Canada’s role is to provide network and cloud connection services to the Canada Border Services Agency, but it is not responsible for creating the application. We already implemented all the required services for the Border Services Agency—