Evidence of meeting #112 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm sorry for interrupting, but that is our time. You can get that back to us in writing.
1:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Procurement, Canada Border Services Agency
Absolutely.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I believe that's me, actually, Mr. Chair. Is that correct?
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
March 26th, 2024 / 1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Moor, I'm going to ask you to comment on the following.
Since the information about ArriveCAN has come to light, the RCMP is looking at ArriveCAN. The ombudsman procurement office has provided a report on the management gaps around ArriveCAN. The Auditor General has provided a report around the management gaps, financial gaps and documentation gaps around ArriveCAN. We will be hearing from the Competition Bureau Canada. As I understand it, they will coming here as a witness. We've also asked the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner to possibly appear and provide testimony on this issue, as I understand it.
At the same time, there is an ongoing internal CBSA investigation, as we have heard. At the same time, PSPC suspended GC Strategies back in November of 2023. I believe that the CBSA has followed suit as well, suspending contracts with GC Strategies. On March 6 of this year, we understand, PSPC suspended security status for GC Strategies as well.
Can you comment on what's taking place right now in terms of the investigations and studies on ArriveCAN? Are we missing something? Are there other agencies or bodies that we could bring to bear on this issue?
1:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
I don't feel that we're missing anything. There have been an awful lot of studies. I would put them into two categories.
I think we know that issues arose during the pandemic, and we are grateful for the lessons learned. I think the lessons learned are fairly similar across most of the studies. As I've said before, we're putting in place a very detailed procurement improvement plan as well as a wider management improvement plan, which includes financial management.
I think the second category is wrongdoing. We take allegations of wrongdoing very seriously, and we are committed to acting on any wrongdoing that is found.
It's probably worth just sort of thinking about our wider investigations. In 2022, we had 212 founded allegations, and we took disciplinary action on 144 of those founded allegations. We do see, sadly, investigations and allegations that have been made, and we have a very professional team that completes that work. Clearly, there's also an investigation going on with the RCMP, so I can't talk about the wrongdoing, and I would leave that up to the experts.
What I can say is that we have already put in place very clear improvement plans around the lessons to be learned. I don't think there's necessarily anything we missed in the lessons learned. As the comptroller general said a few meetings ago, perhaps this is now the time to allow the CBSA to get on and deliver those improvements because, really, we have a lot to do. I think we recognize the problems. We are disappointed in a lot of those problems, and now we are working to address them.
1:55 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
It's been asserted that the $50-million-plus cost of ArriveCAN has ballooned out of control. However, we heard today in your testimony that in fact, in the first year, $5 million was approved for the ArriveCAN system—not just the app, but the system. Then, in year two, additional funding allocations were made of about $25 million. Then, in year three, an additional $25 million was provided to run the ArriveCAN system.
Can you speak to that and to the assertion that the CBSA was not aware of the costs?
1:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
A lot have talked about value for money. Actually, I spent the first 10 years of my career as an external auditor, and I'm very aware of value-for-money studies. Value for money is made up of three core functions: economy, efficiency and effectiveness. I do believe that ArriveCAN provided value for money. I don't believe it provided the best value for the taxpayer.
The examples I'll use on that one.... It is very clear to us that in terms of effectiveness, it was providing information to the Public Health Agency so that the agency could enforce quarantine on a timely basis. That was not being provided by the paper-based system, and the Auditor General recognizes that in her report.
In terms of efficiency, it's also clear that the ArriveCAN app was costing around about a dollar per person. We had 60 million travellers processed, and it was around about $60 million in terms of the cost. That compares to three dollars per person with the paper-based system.
Economy is a much more difficult thing to prove, and it also requires judgment and hindsight to look at economy. I do not believe that we necessarily had the best value for the taxpayer, and we learned a lot of lessons there. However, we were in an emergency crisis situation. We overused contractors; I think elsewhere we would take more time and would do less of that. If we hadn't been in a crisis, we would have had a project plan and we'd actually have treated this as a project. We would have had a plan and we would have implemented it.
Therefore, yes, I think it has provided value for money, but not necessarily the best value for the taxpayer.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Mr. Moor.
Colleagues, before we adjourn, I need to approve a couple of quick budgets, please. One is on the supplementary (C)s, and the other is for the main estimates. One is $500, and one is, I think, $1,000. It's just for headsets and meals. We probably won't use the headset money, and we won't use all the meals.
Actually, they're $1,000 and $1,000. As usual, it's for a contingency in case we need to send out headsets, which I don't think we will.
I see thumbs-up and general agreement for the supplementary (C)s for $1,000.
It's the same for the main estimates: $1,000. I see thumbs-up all around. Thank you very much.
Mr. Brock, go ahead before we adjourn.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Before we adjourn, colleagues, as a committee we've been dancing around several issues of disclosure with various witnesses in terms of Botler's communications with the CBSA, the misconduct report that started the internal investigation, the referral to the RCMP, and, lastly, the whole issue regarding the deleted emails in the report generated by the CBSA.
Mr. Chair, I'm prepared to move a motion at this time. It is in both official languages. Perhaps the clerk could distribute the motion to the committee.
Colleagues, I'm very flexible in terms of the timing here. The motion reads as follows:
That the Committee direct the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) to present, no later than April 2nd, 2024: (a) all Botler AI communication with Erin O’Gorman and other employees of the CBSA; (b) the misconduct report received from Botler AI in the fall of 2022, and (c) any and all evidence pertaining to the deleted and/or missing CBSA emails attributed to Minh Doan.
I'm hoping I can get unanimous consent, Chair.
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I will start a speaking list.
I see Mr. Kusmierczyk, Mr. Sousa and then Mr. Casey.
Go ahead, Mr. Kusmierczyk.
2 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Chair, I'd just ask for a little bit of time to suspend here so that my colleagues and I have a chance to review this motion and discuss it, please.
2 p.m.
Conservative
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We'll excuse our witnesses, if that's okay with everyone.
I'll take that as a yes.
Mr. Moor, Mr. Leahy and Mr. Martel—and Mr. Alexander, even though you didn't get to join in today—thanks for joining us.
We are suspended.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks, everyone. We're back.
I have on the speaking list Mr. Kusmierczyk, Mr. Sousa and Mr. Casey, but I don't.... I just see Mr. Sousa's hand up.
Are we fine starting with him, Mr. Kusmierczyk, or did you wish...? Perfect.
Mr. Sousa, you need to turn your camera on, please.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
My camera is off when it should be on, and my mic is on when it should be off. What can I tell you?
We would like to propose an amendment to this motion. I'm just waiting for it to come out.
With regard to the timing, because so many of these things are ongoing, we'd like to extend it. We also want to deal specifically with items (a), (b) and (c) accordingly.
Right now, you have April 2 as a possibility. We're suggesting that the timing may have to go farther in order to allow for some of the work that's being done, particularly around item (c).
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
I do. I believe we are suggesting the 19th, but I'm awaiting the final amendment in this regard.
I think item (b) is already established. We should be able to obtain the materials in (a) and (b) effectively within this timeline, but perhaps not (c). I don't believe it will be. It's being reviewed now, I believe, by other committees as well.
Give me just a moment. I'm talking to try to allow myself the opportunity to see the final amendment, Mr. Chair.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Can interrupt you, Mr. Sousa?
I'm getting some indication.... I apologize. It's difficult because you're not in the room. I'm getting some indication that the parties are fine with eliminating (c), just because the OIC is looking at that.
I think we all get your point on the timeline on that as well.