Government Operations Committee on March 26th, 2024

[Jonathan Moor]

I'm not aware. PSPC, I think, would have to address that [Inaudible—Editor].

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

To your knowledge, sir, are there any other companies that are operating under suspicious circumstances with their contracting at the CBSA, either with the ArriveCAN app or with other work done at the request of the CBSA, being considered for RCMP referrals?

[Jonathan Moor]

I'm not aware of any at the moment, but as I said before, we are now looking through all of the interactions to see if there are any examples.

For example, we have done a review of our contractors who are working and whether they are included in the GEDS system. We have identified a few names there, but I'm pleased to say that in all of those cases, we have spoken to the other employer—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, sir.

I have in my hand a multi-page letter addressed to Arianne Reza—then the assistant deputy minister, and now the deputy minister for PSPC—in relation to the request for a national security exception in relation to one company.

I'm looking at the third page of this document. Toward the end of it, you indicated:

We have identified a supplier that has already successfully implemented a modern tool for risk assessments on shipments coming in to Canada—

That was once involved with Transport Canada.

—that leveraged technology to build a modern, cloud first approach, low-touch process to replace a manual, high-touch process.

That company in question is GC Strategies, or “Government of Canada Strategies”. Is that correct?

[Jonathan Moor]

I do not believe so, mainly because it refers to shipments. It does not refer to individuals.

Perhaps I could ask Mr. Leahy to answer that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that is our time.

Perhaps in the next round you can respond to that.

Mr. Bains, please go ahead.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

I will address Mr. Moor first.

As you know, sir, elected officials come and go, but in our public service we have people who spend decades in the bureaucracy and in program areas. We learned from GC Strategies that Mr. Anthony had been working in the IT sector for companies since 2005. Mr. Firth said he had been working since 2007.

The procurement processes in place on how to obtain some of these contracts have been around since 2003. We're talking about over 20 years where these contractors and subcontractors, many of whom interchange with different companies, are all working on various projects with government. Over time, there are relationships that have been built amongst all these people working together.

Do you think the CBSA has done enough to ensure there's appropriate oversight of employees and their relationships with prospective contract bidders looking to find this work and understanding how to get it? I'd like to hear about what oversight is in place.

[Jonathan Moor]

I think what I would do is cover it in two separate sections.

The first one really is around the conflict of interest. We have, as part of our procurement improvement plan, strengthened our disclosures around conflicts of interest. What we are now doing is asking all of our staff to declare if they do have a second job, to allow us to evaluate that. There is no real reason why people shouldn't have a second job, but the important thing is to be transparent about that and ensure there is no potential conflict of interest.

The other area that I think you're referring to is the oversight of the procurements and the task authorizations. As I've said before, our procurement improvement plan has created the executive procurement review committee, which is going to be looking at everything over $40,000. We've already had over a dozen meetings about that, and we're already starting to really strengthen the second line of defence around this.

The third thing I would say is that you're asking a more general question around the Government of Canada's procurement. I think the deputy minister of PSPC did refer to that in her evidence on around over 600 staff augmentation companies and really looking to see if we can insource and actually have these facilities or these people in-house.

I'm pleased to say that the CBSA has already started to do this. We have set a target of bringing 25% of all contractors in-house, reducing our level of contractors by 25%. In some cases, we've actually gone even further than that. In terms of our chief data officer, I'm pleased to say that they had 75 contractors in April 2023, and they're now down to 44 contractors in April 2024—well, that's the aim—and that's a 41% decrease.

I think there are multiple different parts to your question.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Well, I'd like to see that there's no opportunity for collusion amongst people who are trying to obtain these contracts, for having a relationship with certain people who are saying, “Yes, here is what you should do to get this contract—this is how you can get this.” To your knowledge, has the CBSA identified any employees who also have procurement contracts with the government?

[Jonathan Moor]

I'm going through all the checks. We have not identified any at the moment, but what I can say is that we're continuing that work. PSPC has identified some fraudulent payments. I think we have to continue that work and make sure it's all completed. I think it is worth saying, though, that the CBSA takes the allegations of wrongdoing very seriously and, as we have said before, we are currently investigating those allegations.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

When I asked Minh Doan about the decision to pick GC Strategies, his initial response was that a team of 1,400 people were all involved and then it was narrowed down to six directors general. Did this decision come down to these directors general? Did they advise Mr. Doan to make this decision? He clearly made the decision.

[Jonathan Moor]

I can't—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give us just a brief answer, if you can, Mr. Moor.

[Jonathan Moor]

I can't comment on exactly who made the decision, but I think Minh Doan is accountable, just as I am accountable for the CFO functions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

We'll go to Mrs. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will now go back to some of my earlier questions.

When I asked you about the impact of the measures implemented, you spoke about transparency and a stronger first and second line of defence.

Yes or no, do you have any qualitative or quantitative criteria to effectively and efficiently assess the impact of these measures?

[Jonathan Moor]

Certainly.

In terms of our second line of defence on financial controls, we do random selective testing of invoices. At the moment, we're doing about 5% of those invoices and we're checking to make sure they comply with all of those rules and regulations.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Moor]

Unfortunately—

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I only have two and a half minutes of speaking time.

[Jonathan Moor]

That's no problem.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Are the three measures that you mentioned permanent?

[Jonathan Moor]

Yes, they are permanent measures, and the testing of invoices has been going on for many years.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

I see that tests are done for contracts exceeding $40,000. How do you explain the fact that contracts worth two, three, four, five or six million dollars weren't previously tested, and that there was no reaction?

Everyone gets the impression that things were allowed to run their course haphazardly. People figured that since it was taxpayers' money, it was all right. That's the impression people have about this situation.

Why did no alarm bells go off before October 2022, when the committee started studying the issue?

[Jonathan Moor]

COVID was a very intense period of time, and we were relying on the delegations of authorities in the DFSA. We were also relying on the oversight of PSPC for their contracts.