Government Operations Committee on March 28th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Atwin, go ahead.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would echo a lot of the comments of Mrs. Vignola regarding rationale.

I'd also highlight that Premier Houston asked to appear at the finance committee, not at OGGO. Also, the other premiers have not asked to appear here, so I'm questioning why their names would be included in this.

I appreciate that we're actually seeing a motion for this and that we're being involved in the discussion and decision-making about this potential appearance. That is a nice and marked change from what we've been experiencing, but I'm going to need to know a bit more of the rationale around that as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I realize it's a tiny bit out of order, but we've had many requests for you to flesh out this motion, Mr. Naqvi.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Do you want me to speak to the main motion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I think three of our members were asking you to flesh out the estimates, etc., so why don't we do that? Then we'll return to the subamendment.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

We've now just spent two days talking about the price on pollution, about climate change and about the carbon tax. Chair, with all due respect, you unilaterally invited a few premiers to come and present here. However, I think it's important to hear from people who are directly involved in dealing with the impact of climate change.

Our firefighters are on the front lines. We have all heard from them about the impact of climate change, including floods and other circumstances they are seeing right now on the ground in pretty much every province across this country. They are the ones being called upon to help Canadians every single day.

If we have given an opportunity to three premiers to come and deny climate change and deny any action that should be taken to fight it, I think it's important that we also hear from people like firefighters to draw the complete picture of the impact of climate change on Canadians, as well as what they are seeing and what the impact is on them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

We'll get back to the subamendment.

We'll start with Mr. Hallan.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank my honourable colleague Philip Lawrence for a very good subamendment that makes absolute sense and is very relevant. I'll address some of the comments that Ms. Atwin made as well.

I think it is important to have the other premiers here, as Mr. Naqvi said, to talk not just about climate change but also the negative impact that the carbon tax has on families in their provinces.

To address Ms. Atwin, this is being taken up in this committee because the finance committee chair went into hiding when the premiers came calling. It was the chair of this committee, our great colleague and member for Edmonton West and the West Edmonton Mall—

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. That is inaccurate.

The chair of the finance committee was clear—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Kusmierczyk, I accept what you're saying, but it's not a point of order. Thanks.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

—that he did not receive a request from the majority of the committee, so—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please continue, Mr. Hallan.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

I want to thank the great member for Edmonton West and the West Edmonton Mall for stepping up since the finance chair, Peter Fonseca, went into hiding when the premiers came calling. Following that, I think it is appropriate that we have the premiers come here and testify on the impact of failed environmental policies by this Liberal-NDP government, not just on firefighters, but also on residents in their provinces.

In the case of the premier that Mr. Lawrence put forward, he is a Liberal premier who said to spike the hike against this Liberal-NDP government, which is absolutely obsessed with this carbon tax and is making sure the costs of gas, groceries and home heating go up and is driving more people to food banks. We have seen two million people going to food banks in a single month and a million more are projected to. Can you believe that in Canada today there is a group of 10,000 Canadians in a Facebook group who are Dumpster diving because they can't afford food? All of these things are very relevant.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

This is not a debate on the floor of the House of Commons. We've heard all of your talking points, thank you very much. Let's talk about this motion, Chair, and let's get to it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, just very quickly on this, I was mistakenly referring to the amendment offered by Mr. Lawrence as a subamendment. We are on the amendment to the original motion by Mr. Naqvi, just to be clear.

Go ahead, Ms. Atwin, please.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again it's the relevance of bringing in premiers to speak on an issue on which we want to pull in the expertise of the firefighters association. I think it's clear that the premiers are not experts on the main estimates. They're not necessarily experts on carbon pricing either. We heard a lot of rhetoric but no real tabled information. Again I would question the linkages in this conversation. We're supposed to be studying the main estimates. I would again highlight that those premiers did not request to appear before our committee. I think we should respect their time and the responsibility that they have to look after their own provinces, including mine at home here in New Brunswick. Again there was inaction in the legislature here in New Brunswick. Action was not taken to look at electricity price increases. Instead our premier was here to grandstand.

I think this is all a game and a circus and a farce at this point. I think Canadians deserve better than this, but at the very least, if we're going to open this Pandora's box, I'd like to hear from experts on climate change. Perhaps natural resource ministers would be a better fit. I'm not proposing an amendment but I would just like to put forward that this is increasingly making very little sense, and it's certainly wasting our time as a committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Mr. Bragdon, go ahead, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I just want to clear up something here. Any idea that premiers should not be addressing this committee—or any committee, for that matter—on behalf of their constituents and on behalf of the people who live in the provinces.... Premiers are the first ministers of this country. They should be heard on any issue that we deem we want to hear from them on or that they would like to have input on. They asked to speak to the finance committee. That was not granted. When they were asked to speak here, they jumped at the opportunity to do that, because this is a top-of-mind issue for every Canadian.

I know at home here in New Brunswick it is top of mind, because every time New Brunswickers go to the grocery store, fill up their car, take their kids to a sporting event or go to work, they have to drive, and this tax is disproportionately affecting those of us who live in rural communities and small towns. Given the fact that premiers want to speak to this committee about this issue, I think it behooves this committee to make sure that every premier who wants to speak on this has the opportunity to do that. They are Canada's first ministers. We need to hear from them, and they should be heard. I think we should go ahead with this one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Mrs. Goodridge, please go ahead.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I think it's absolutely relevant to be hearing from our premiers. Their budgets are being impacted substantially by this. They represent a very important space when it comes to how this is impacting Canadians from coast to coast to coast. We heard today very clearly from Premier Higgs and Premier Smith about how this is impacting families and causing families to make very difficult choices, and that is directly relevant to our supplementary estimates. This is absolutely critical information.

I agree with Ms. Vignola that we should have the opportunity to hear from all the premiers across the country about the effects of the carbon tax on their economies and on families.

I think it's political grandstanding coming from the Liberals, who want to shut down hearing from premiers they don't like and who are being triggered by people who happen to be supportive of oil and gas. Frankly we have to stand up against this. I fully support hearing more on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I dislike, and I mean heartily dislike, having words put in my mouth. I’m going to correct what was just said and I’m also going to correct what a member of the Liberal Party said.

First of all, when you provide information, you have to provide all of it. Yes, it’s important to me that the premiers of Quebec and the Canadian provinces be heard, but they probably shouldn’t be heard at the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. There’s a federal-provincial table for that purpose, and Finances can be linked to that too. So the “but” is important: when you inform, you fully inform, and you don’t hide half the information. Thank you very much.

Secondly, I followed the meeting on ParlVu and at no time did I hear any of the premiers present here today deny the consequences of climate upheaval, both on the economy and the environment. Let me be clear. We’re told that we’ve heard people deny the consequences of climate change, and that we need to hear from others who will come and say that it exists. However, no premier here at this table has said that it doesn’t exist or that it has no consequences.

The Premier of Alberta pointed out that there have indeed been human-caused fires, but she did not deny the consequences of climate change on the economy. When you provide information, I’d like you to provide information on the big picture. You can’t claim that I’m a big fan of oil. Informing means giving all the information you receive, without hiding or misrepresenting any of it. It’s important to remember that.

With regard to the premiers, I stand by my position that we must study the Main Estimates. I’m keenly aware that they have things to say and want to say them, that they want to be heard by the Prime Minister of Canada, but don’t feel they are. That’s where the solution lies. Is the Prime Minister of Canada at the table? The answer is no. There is a specific table for the Prime Minister of Canada and the premiers of the provinces and Quebec, and that is where they must discuss, find solutions together and study the issues in depth. That’s what I said. I repeat, don’t put words in my mouth. Let’s not distort the information I’ve provided.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mrs. Vignola.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, please go ahead.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Over the last two weeks, the committee members here at OGGO were treated like doormats by you, the chair. We've raised that issue on a number of occasions where we weren't consulted. We weren't consulted on the meetings. We weren't consulted on the witnesses.

I've been on the OGGO committee for five years, and many of the members around this table have been here for five years. We do serious work here. We are worker bees around this table. We put our heads down, we do good work and we study issues of great importance to our residents and our constituents in Canada.

I am seeing right now that good work and that spirit being thrown away and the OGGO committee being turned into a soapbox for premiers, an election platform for premiers. As my honourable colleague mentioned, they have many platforms already that they can grandstand on. I really object to the fact that they want to turn what is a hard-working committee, a dedicated committee, into their own personal grandstanding soapbox and election platform.

Do your campaigning somewhere else.

We had three premiers come before this committee. Each of those premiers has a wildfire crisis in their province, where millions of hectares of land have been burned, with billions of dollars in costs. We heard three premiers here: all talk, no action and no plan to fight and address the climate crisis. We heard the screaming hypocrisy of premiers coming here to decry a 3¢ increase on the price of a litre of gas because of the price on pollution, when, in their own provinces.... The Premier of New Brunswick is increasing hydro rates by 12%, and the Premier of Alberta is increasing the gas tax by 4¢, and not mentioning a word about that. They come here and say nothing about the fact that the Parliamentary Budget Officer clearly stated in the last meeting—it was clear as day—that four out of five families are better off with the price on pollution and the Canada carbon rebate.

No answers in terms of why the premiers, especially in the case of Alberta...a family of four in Alberta that receives about $2,100 back on the Canada carbon rebate every year...and no mention about what that will do in terms of the affordability crisis that so many families are facing: There's nothing new that came from these conversations. Everything that was said was said in the newspapers and was said already by these premiers in the media, on television, in rallies. All it did was take time away from this committee to do the work that it's supposed to do, that it's designed to do, and, in this case, to study the main estimates and provide a report back to the House of Commons.

This is a complete taking over, a taking hostage of this committee and its important work. It raises this question as well: Each of these premiers, especially from Alberta, has a health care crisis on their hands. What the heck are they doing here in a two-hour committee meeting at OGGO, spewing the same lines they've said on every other platform in the media and newspapers, bringing absolutely nothing to this discussion? Isn't there a better use of their time?

Finally, if these meetings with the premiers were so important, why is it that the three Conservative permanent members of this committee were not present at any of the meetings and at the testimonies of the premiers, especially considering that we had two Conservative MPs, permanent members on this committee who are from Alberta, and one who is from Saskatchewan, and they wouldn't even bother...? They couldn't even be bothered to shake the sand off their sandals, grab a laptop and join us.

Everyone else was here, including my NDP colleague, who was downright ill but who made an effort to be here.

I want OGGO to get back to the way it was, focusing on good work, asking tough questions, doing research and having opportunities to prepare for our witnesses so we can ask the tough questions to hold people to account and we can provide recommendations for the government with respect to policies. That's the way we've done it for five years, but somehow, in the last number of months, this committee has been hijacked. Its members have been treated as doormats, and this committee is turning into nothing but a propaganda tool and a soapbox for somebody's campaigns. That is not the way it should be.

I ask the chair to listen to what the committee said in the last meeting when we passed the motion. Work with us. Collaborate with us. Let's get back to work. Let's put this childish grandstanding aside and let's get back to the work that Canadians expect from all of us.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 3)

(Motion agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0)

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Today is Thursday. How about we say one week from tomorrow, Friday, at noon, for everyone to send the names of their witnesses to the clerk? Then we'll figure out when the witnesses are available and proceed from there.

Colleagues, thank you very much. If there's nothing else, we're adjourned.