Evidence of meeting #116 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ryan Greer  Vice President, Public Affairs and National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Corinne Pohlmann  Executive Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Chad Swance  Director, Canadian Association of Importers and Exporters
Alex Greco  Senior Director, Manufacturing and Value Chains, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Does everyone have a copy? It has gone out.

Mrs. Block, do you have your hand up?

Before I get to you, colleagues, I'm thinking that I'm hoping to go in camera so that we can discuss the translation issue that we've sent out.

I'm thinking of releasing the witnesses. I've been getting some feedback from everyone that these have been phenomenal witnesses, and perhaps we'd enjoy an opportunity to have them back in.

To the witnesses, thank you very much for being with us today. I wish we could have gone through the last rounds, but I suspect that we will have you back so that we can have shorter questions and longer answers.

Thank you for joining us. I sincerely appreciate that all of you made the effort to be here in person as well. You are dismissed. We look forward to having you back before summer.

We will get to Mrs. Block. We're just going to suspend for a couple of moments.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks. We are back.

Mrs. Block has withdrawn her name, but I see that Mrs. Vignola has her hand up. Then I have Mrs. Atwin.

April 10th, 2024 / 6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Mr. Chair, thank you for giving me the floor.

We all consider it important to ensure that the policies put in place to allow for greater diversity in procurement are relevant.

We all feel—this is my opinion, but I think my colleagues from all parties here will agree with me—that when a contract is awarded under a policy of inclusiveness and diversity, it must absolutely fulfill its objectives.

In that sense, we all pretty much support the main motion moved by Mr. Genuis. This is an important topic.

My amendment will allow us to do an analysis before we undertake a much more in-depth study, which would probably require a lot more documents than the ones I'm going to suggest.

Nevertheless, it will allow us to do an analysis, which will then help determine whether there is a widespread problem. If so, we'll have to carry out a much more in-depth, much more comprehensive analysis, including a number of meetings.

Without further ado, here is the amendment I'm proposing.

All that would be left of Mr. Genuis's motion are the substantive ideas. The wording would be different. It would read as follows: “That, in accordance with Standing Orders 108(1), 108(2) and 108(3)(c) of the House of Commons, the committee order the production of the Government of Canada's list of qualified aboriginal businesses in both official languages; the list include (a) any summary of the key details about each company in the government's PSAB database, (b) the number and value of contracts received by each enterprise and (c) the list of subcontractors used for each contract; the information be provided to the committee by May 20, 2024”.

Since we're talking about the indigenous procurement policy, these companies have been on the list created since that policy was put in place. We can add that component if need be.

It continues, “committee members will conduct an analysis of the list and, further to that analysis, decide whether it is necessary to conduct a longitudinal study of the matter in committee or subcommittee, as they so choose, provided that this decision is made before June 20, 2024”.

We will start when we receive the lists that will allow us to do a preliminary analysis. If we find that there is indeed a widespread problem with the awarding of contracts under the indigenous procurement policy, we can decide, by June 20, whether or not to add this particular topic to the committee's or a subcommittee's studies. It will be up to the members of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates to make the decision.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

The clerk is just sending out Mrs. Vignola's amendment to everyone.

Jenica, are you ready to speak on her amendment?

You are. Go ahead, please. Then we have Mr. Genuis.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

I'm really grateful that we've come to this place. I think the spirit of it is that we want to get to the bottom of what's happening and we want to support the policy around indigenous business set-asides and procurement strategies.

However, I was concerned about the broad scope. I really want to take the time right now to comment on how problematic it is for a committee to look at and perhaps scrutinize the indigenous status of an individual and perhaps their workforce. There are certain mechanisms within different departments that can conduct these kinds of audits. Indigenous Services Canada is an example of that.

I'm just concerned about the broad scope, so I'm very much open to getting the data, looking at the information first and then moving from there to determine where we want to take it.

Should it require a further longitudinal study? Should it require a subcommittee? I think we need more information to be able to decide that, because there is a complex issue here around identity, which may become more problematic than we might first assume in looking at the initial motion.

I'm very much in support of Ms. Vignola's amendment.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Genuis, go ahead on the amendment, please.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you, Chair.

We're hopefully coming towards a consensus.

I think this is an important area to study. If it gives members greater confidence in the process, requesting documents as an initial step is very reasonable, and then the committee can evaluate next steps after that. I'm supportive of the amendment as well.

I will just say that the original motion and the amendment are about scrutinizing government policy. That is our job as parliamentarians. It's to look at the government policy as it relates to indigenous procurement.

I know, of course, that it is going to touch on a variety of different, important, complex issues, but at the end of the day, it's about looking at government policy, seeing if it's working or not and making recommendations about how to improve it.

I won't belabour the point. I think we're at a consensus, Chair, and I think we can proceed to a vote on the amendment and the amended motion.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Do we need a recorded vote, or are we fine to do so with unanimous consent?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Mr. Kusmierczyk is next.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I just want to ask a question.

Could we get an update from the clerk on what we requested in terms of the correspondence between the premiers and the committee regarding the premiers' appearance?

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Go ahead, sir.

6:10 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard

Thank you.

We sent a follow-up to Mr. Higgs' office yesterday about the documentation that originally was requested two weeks ago by the committee. We will see what fruit the committee will gather from it.

With regard to the question, when the clerk of the committee reached out to premiers for their appearance, as far as I know the date was March 26.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Can I just ask if they've shared correspondence with the committee on that fact? I think we asked—

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

When you say “they”, who's “they”?

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I mean the premiers.

We had asked them to share correspondence with the committee regarding their appearance.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I think that's what he was saying. We've requested it again.

6:15 p.m.

The Clerk

Yes, that was yesterday.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We are now going to go in camera, because we need to discuss the translation issue.

Everyone has received the letter from the clerk, so we will go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]