Government Operations Committee on May 1st, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Your intent is a motion to adjourn the debate.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Any member of the committee can bring back the motion at any future date. I think the intention is clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I just want to be clear that this was a motion to adjourn the debate.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's correct.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 3)

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wonderful.

Yes, I'll get to you Ms. Block. Don't give me that look.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm just teasing you. Yes, I see you.

I see you as well, Mrs. Atwin and Mr. Genuis.

Colleagues, before I get to that, I want to discuss May 29. There are two things, just to keep everyone informed.

I've brought this up before. For Canada Post, as the committee made clear, the president is to appear for the rural post office study by himself, without PSPC, and he has agreed to appear on May 29. Somehow, PSPC has decided that they are going to appear together, which is against the will of the committee. We are communicating to them. He's welcome to come along with PSPC on the mains, but he will appear separately.

My intent is to do a four-hour meeting on the 29th, starting with PSPC on the main estimates and with TBS on the mains in the second hour, with the minister. Then, in the final two hours, it's Canada Post, to recognize the motion from Mr. Bachrach and the will of the committee to have Canada Post appear separately on the rural post office study.

That's just so everyone is aware of that.

On Wednesday—the clerk just sent out a note—we are doing the line-by-line for Canada Life. We have a small number of recommendations. It's a relatively short report so I'm hoping that we'll be able to finish it in its entirety this Wednesday.

Before I go to Ms. Block, did you have something specifically on May 29, Mr. Jowhari?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes. Can you go through that slowly? I'm aging and my hearing and eyesight are going away.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

As am I, Mr. Jowhari, so you might have to repeat what you just asked.

The intent is to do a four-hour meeting. We tried to get PSPC, Treasury Board and Canada Post to be flexible with us. Unfortunately, with much disappointment, they have all refused and they are all going to appear on the same day for the main estimates.

The first hour, from 4:30 to 5:30, will be with PSPC on the main estimates, with the minister. From 5:30 to 6:30, it will be with Treasury Board on the mains, with the minister. The last two hours will be with Canada Post solely to be here on the rural post office study.

PSPC stated that they wanted to appear with Canada Post, but we brought it up almost a month ago that this is not the will of the committee. PSPC is welcome to bring them along between 4:30 to 5:30, if they wish. The will of the committee, and my intent, is to have them here separately from 6:30 to 8:30 solely on the rural post office study.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

If I may go back—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. Just let me interrupt.

Before we get to Ms. Block, Mrs. Atwin and Mr. Genuis, we'll just finish all the discussion on May 29.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Really, on May 29, for the first two hours as you are suggesting, from 4:30 to 6:30, that was the plan. This is as we have planned before. This is on the main estimates. We're going to have PSPC and TBS. That hasn't changed. All we are adding is two hours next to that, and that's where we're bringing in Canada Post.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's correct.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Fair enough. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You've just answered my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We had tried to get PSPC by themselves for two hours, and TBS by themselves for two hours, on the mains, as has been traditional. Unfortunately, we have not been successful in getting them to be flexible with their calendar.

Mr. Bachrach, is this on the 29th issue?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's on the issue of Canada Post appearing on the study on rural postal service.

I would love to have the documents that we requested by that time so that we can ask him about the specifics. I'm just noting that the information was not included as requested.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, we'll follow up.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Genuis, did you have your hand up regarding the 29th?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I just wanted to make a quick comment that I'm disappointed to see the continuing erosion of ministerial accountability in terms of reporting on the estimates. There was a time when even Liberal members would ask ministers to appear for two hours on estimates. Now, the norm has become one hour plus an hour of officials, and now they're trying to erode it further to have both ministers appear back-to-back so you lose the additional hour with officials for follow-up questions as well.

By next fall I suspect we'll have an offer of seven minutes for each minister, once every two years or something. Maybe I'm on dangerous ground even suggesting that; I don't want to give them ideas.

This is stupid, it undermines the accountability function that committees are supposed to have. It's clearly the intention of the government to offer ministers a very limited window on the same day, without the opportunity to have follow-up questions for officials. It's bad for our democracy, but there's not much we can do about it, I suppose, since committees don't have the power to summon ministers. It's a bit ironic, in some ways, that we can go all the way to the wall in demanding answers from other people, but ministers blow off tradition when it comes to accountability.

I think it's bad for Parliament and bad for democracy, but it's frankly just what I've come to expect from Liberal ministers. I want to register my displeasure and leave it there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want a clarification about the ministers' appearance, specifically the dates.

Isn't the chair the one who sets the schedule for meetings, based on the committee's needs and available dates, so as to optimize the time we have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We do invite and we've offered different days for the ministers to appear. Unfortunately, they have refused. They've stated this is the only date available to them. I take the estimates very seriously, as you're probably aware, and I think I'm agreeing with Mr. Genuis that it's unfortunate that we cannot have the ministers here, the departments, for two hours to defend their estimates, especially considering the amount of money and, frankly, the poor results from the departmental results, but unfortunately, this is all they will make themselves available for.

On the 29th, Mr. Drouin.