Government Operations Committee on May 15th, 2024

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Chair, there was no interpretation during Mr. Genuis's comment, nor was there any when Ms. Zarillo started to answer him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We apparently lost interpretation for Mr. Genuis's comment, which is probably just as well.

Is the interpretation coming through now, Ms. Larouche?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

There is when you speak, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay.

Mr. Brock, go ahead on a point of order.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There's no interpretation, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Clerk, do you want to say a few words in French and we'll see if the interpretation is working in English?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard]

Of course. I'm happy to be here, as clerk, at our second meeting of the day.

Is my sound good?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

There's no interpretation.

We're going to suspend for a few seconds so we can get this sorted out. My apologies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We are back.

We will start at the very beginning, with Ms. Zarrillo for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

My question is for Ms. Carruthers. I'll preface it by saying that I've had the hypothesis since being elected that there has been a lack of investment in technology over the decades. I feel like there are some things we can't do for Canadians because of technology, so I was very intrigued when there was mention of a change in tools. This relates to my question.

When the procurement ombudsperson came to the committee, they said there needs to be an aggressive and comprehensive rethinking of how government contracting is done and that band-aid solutions will not work. My question is about the tools that you mentioned. Are these actual, physical upgrades and changes to software tools? What do any of these changes in the tools and processes look like? Has underinvestment in those kinds of tools played a part in these issues, which really do affect Canadians?

[Shirley Carruthers]

As I mentioned earlier, I think one of our challenges has not necessarily been with the tools that one would typically think of in response to procurement, but it's in information management, given the fact that we're dispersed around the globe. Investments in that area certainly will help with a lot of the issues in document storage and whatnot.

To speak to some of the other systems improvements that we made, they require an investment of both time and resources, but the benefits certainly make those endeavours worth it. I know I've mentioned this a couple of times, but if I think about our electronic signature solution in particular, just having it in place means that we have fewer resources involved in the process from a manual perspective. It not only takes away that risk, but also frees up resources that we have within the department in order to concentrate on other areas. Then we can rest assured that those transactions will be fine and move our attention to other areas of higher risk.

I think the CFO community is very seized with the issues that are currently taking place in the realm of procurement. Looking at ways that we, as a community, can tighten up the controls from a systems perspective would be very appreciated. Then we can ensure the fairness of the process and continue to be open and transparent.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

Has this committee received information in the past about the costs of any of those tools and processes? You mentioned that they're well worth it, but has there been a submission to this committee on that? If not, could we get a submission on the expenses over the last five years for process and tool improvement?

[Shirley Carruthers]

No, not that I'm aware of. I can certainly take that back and provide the information to you.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

Thinking a bit about the conversation that's happening right now in Parliament about foreign interference, I know that when the Conservatives were in government, they outsourced some of the veterans' data to an American company. I'm just wondering if there is talk right now about how to keep data safe in this new and evolving world.

[Shirley Carruthers]

Yes, absolutely.

I think I talked before about the fact that we didn't have one global repository system that we could use to access information from across the world. Security is one of the reasons that underpin some of the challenges we have. For us, maintaining the integrity and security of our information is obviously our top priority. That is why it has taken us up until now to devise such a system. We're waiting for the technology to keep pace with security, and we're making sure we have everything so that we're not putting our information at risk.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

My last question is on the upsizing of contracts. A $40,000 threshold was in a couple of examples in the report, where the same supplier had come back and increased contracts time after time.

I'm just wondering if you could share a bit about why that happened and what the process was.

[Shirley Carruthers]

Three instances of this were found in the audit, but I'll turn to my DG of procurement, Dan Pilon, who can provide some additional details regarding this.

[Daniel Pilon]

Thank you very much.

The contract with the increase above the $40,000 threshold was a single instance where an initial contract for two resources was put in place for, in essence, temporary help services, as we needed some resources to come in and help with a surplus or surge in workload. The initial request was for two resources. Only one resource was put on contract at the onset, which generated a low dollar value. A second resource was then added to meet the original requirement when a second resource was found, which drove the contract to be increased, along with the period of time. Then what happened is a third resource was added to the contract with an amendment, and it surpassed the $40,000 threshold.

We've notified the manager. We've addressed the situation with retraining and proper procedures.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Carruthers, thank you for responding to Ms. Zarrillo about the information. Just so you're aware, our committee passed a motion that we require all requests to be done within 21 days and given to the clerk.

We're now going to Mrs. Block for five minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I see you are probably able to hear me by my screen lighting up. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, loud and clear.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Great.

I missed a couple of interventions, so I may be repeating some questions that were asked. My first question will be for those who conducted the audit.

You have uncovered routine irregularities in the hiring of consultants in Minister Mélanie Joly's department. Was this an annual review that you conducted or part of a regular review?

[Natalie Lalonde]

It's not a regular review that we do. We have internal processes that do reviews, but that's part of the chief financial officer's group. Every year, in my group, as I explained, we do a risk-based audit plan, and we plan the engagements we will be doing during that year. Last year, we identified this as an audit to undertake, so it's not something we do regularly.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I believe the review followed a public outcry over billions spent on consultants government-wide, and I think that was in the internal audit report. This was over half a billion dollars at Global Affairs over the last five years alone.

What is the acceptable rate of contract failure in government departments?

[Natalie Lalonde]

Obviously, an acceptable rate would be 0%, but unfortunately, with the process being so complex and involving so many people, I'm not sure that you can go for that.