Yes.
Evidence of meeting #122 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #122 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Mr. Genuis, we'll start at five minutes. If you're able to, go ahead, sir.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Yes, I am, Chair.
I'll pick up where Mr. Brock left off. The report indicates that there were three instances of contract splitting. I wonder if our auditor can confirm that, in fact, instances of contract splitting were identified and give us some context for her previous response.
2 p.m.
Chief Audit Executive, Office of the Chief Audit Executive, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes, of course. I was under the impression that her question had to do with the statistical sample and whether there were any incidents of contract splitting there. The answer to that question is no.
My report details three instances where we found potential contract splitting. That was related to another type of sampling we did, which was risk-based, and there, we were looking for contract splitting. After validation verification, we did find three instances.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay, thank you.
I would suggest that in the future, you try to be more precise, because I think that lends itself to significantly less confusion.
Further to the issue of contract splitting, there's been an effort to portray this as an instance of forgetting to cross the t's and dot the i's, but contract splitting involves intention. It involves somebody knowing what the rules are—that a competitive process is required over a certain threshold—and then intentionally trying to divide the contract up in a way that is not consistent with policies in order to get around policies and avoid a competitive process. This is explicitly a kind of corruption, an effort to circumvent the rules to avoid a competitive process and benefit somebody. That needs to be noted in the context of some of the downplaying of the problems going on.
Do you have any information about the motivation behind the contract splitting and, in the instances of contract splitting, who specifically benefited from it?
2:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Planning, Finance and Information Technology, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
In terms of the three instances where contract splitting was mentioned in the audit, I'll just say that those were six relatively low-dollar value—
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
That's not the point. Who benefited?
2:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Planning, Finance and Information Technology, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Who benefited? Maybe first I can just address the—
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
No. Could you answer the question, please?
2:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Planning, Finance and Information Technology, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Who benefited? Are—
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, if my colleague could allow the witness to answer the question, that would help all of us get the information we need.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
On the same point of order, Ms. Carruthers spent four minutes not answering the same question in the last round, so I'm going to be more direct this time, in my expectation that direct questions receive direct answers. Mr. Kusmierczyk knows that it's my time to do so.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Mr. Kusmierczyk, it is the member's time.
Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Ms. Carruthers, who benefited from this corrupt contract splitting? Who were the consultants who benefited?
May 15th, 2024 / 2:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Planning, Finance and Information Technology, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I'm going to turn this over to my colleague Dan Pilon.
2:05 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
The three instances of contract splitting were from the same unit and from the same manager, so it was a very isolated incident in that it was not widespread throughout the department. It was one specific manager of our administrative distribution centre. That manager is no longer in the position. That being said, when we found out about this, we addressed the issue. We addressed it with the person's supervisor. Then we went in with mandatory training and readdressed the situation.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You're telling us that this person was involved with multiple cases of corrupt contract splitting. You said they're no longer in the position. I hear that as you saying they still work for the government.
Does that person still work for the Government of Canada?
2:05 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I do not know personally if this person.... I think they are still within the department, although I don't know their tenure specifically.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You don't know for sure, but you say they were likely moved to a different position within the department. I would like you to provide to the committee the name of that individual and the current position they hold. If you have that information, you can provide it now. If you don't, you can follow up in writing.
Are you prepared to do that?
2:05 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I will not provide it now. I don't have that information. If you require it, we will provide it.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
We'll require that in writing, according to the timelines that we usually require.
Who were the consultants who benefited from these instances of contract splitting? Who got the deals? Who got the money?
2:05 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I will answer, if you don't mind.
It was one company that was used for temporary help services. They provide services to help staff and so forth. There were three instances—
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
2:05 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I will get that to you in 30 seconds. I'll put on my glasses.
It is Excel Human Resources.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I assume that if I request it, we'll have the agreement of the committee to bring Excel HR to provide testimony.