Government Operations Committee on May 15th, 2024

[Natalie Lalonde]

Yes, I would.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Ms. Carruthers, earlier in this meeting, you made a couple of comments that piqued my interest. One is that you are firmly of the belief, notwithstanding this damning report from the audit department, that you delivered “value for money”. You delivered value “for Canadians”. Those are your words.

You're of the mindset that there is no evidence of wrongdoing with respect to the factual findings of a very small sample. The sample was under 100 contracts from over 8,000 contracts in total over a four-year period, with a fail rate of close to 25%, and you determined that there's no evidence of wrongdoing. You may conclude that there have been instances of irregularities, but I view this from a different lens. I view this from the lens of a Crown attorney for 30 years. There are clear examples, in my view, of criminality and outright corruption here.

The Trudeau government and the whole department, with respect to procurement and contracting in general, are rife with abuse and mismanagement. It's a culture—

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, Mr. Brock is completely misdirecting and misinforming this committee with his—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That's not a point of order, Chair.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

On the same point of order—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I will decide whether it's a point of order or not.

Make your comment brief, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I would just refer Mr. Kusmierczyk to the scripture I referred to earlier about trying to remove a sliver—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay, thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, that's not a point of order. I find it very ironic that this is coming from you after your last intervention. I don't think anyone should be throwing rocks inside glass houses.

Mr. Brock, continue, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The culture of abuse and mismanagement in the Justin Trudeau government is alive and well at Global Affairs. There were instances of irregularities, as you call them. I call it corruption. There were no signed contracts, yet money was paid out. Contracts were signed after the fact for services rendered. One contract was signed by an individual who benefited from the transaction. Contracts within—

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Unfortunately, we've lost interpretation again.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The sound quality was poor.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

My apologies, Ms. Larouche. We're obviously having lots of tech issues today.

Do you want to just back up and—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Is there still a problem, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes. You're perfectly loud and clear inside the room. Unfortunately, just for interpretation, there is some glitch.

There are two minutes and 20 seconds left. Perhaps Mr. Genuis or Mrs. Block can finish off.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead, please, for two minutes and 20 seconds.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

We heard earlier about a case where an employee put in place a contract for an outside consultant to give them 5,000 dollars' worth of coaching services, and then that employee signed for the contract. Obviously, that employee broke the rules when they signed the contract for themselves.

Is it common at Global Affairs for officials to hire outside consultants to provide them with coaching services?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Yes, this type of activity is permitted.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Is it common?

[Shirley Carruthers]

I don't know if I would say it's common. It's not uncommon. We would have to do a sample of the numbers, but it's something that happens—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Could you do that? Could you provide the committee with the number of instances that outside consultants were hired to provide coaching services? We would request to see that within the usual time frame.

Have you ever thought about setting up an internal mentorship process so you don't have to hire outside consultants? Why don't you have the expertise for people to coach and support each other without bringing in external consultants for these expensive, nebulous advice contracts?

[Shirley Carruthers]

We do have several mentorship programs within the department. We have a school within the department that provides a lot of training services to our employees. One of—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's perfect. Then why in the world is there contracting out for a life coach? It just doesn't make any sense to me that the government would spend money hiring external consultants to provide coaching when you already clearly have the internal capacity to provide mentorship and support within the public service.

[Shirley Carruthers]

I think the hiring of professional services for things like coaching is done across all government departments. Of course, it's—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Wow. Well, let's start at Global Affairs. Will you provide the information requested to the committee?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Certainly.