Government Operations Committee on May 15th, 2024

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Sure.

Last year, we saw Conservative MPs having lunch with the extremist AfD party.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I think if he's out of time, he's out of time, and he can post this to his Twitter feed or something.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, you are past the clock. Could you wrap up with a very brief question?

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I want to ask whether some of that consulting is around the impact of, again, the Conservatives meeting with far right extremist groups from Germany. Are we looking at the impact that has on anti-democratic—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Kusmierczyk, I asked you twice to wrap up, and we're well past the time now. I'm ready to move on to our next intervention.

Was there a point of order, Mr. Brock, or is this settled? Can we move on?

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

He's well past his time, and all he's doing is editorializing. He's not asking a question. It's time to move on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks. We have finished. That's not a point of order, but I appreciate you bringing it up.

We are now going to Ms. Larouche for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm slightly confused about some points this afternoon. Actually, there are two things. I'd like to raise a point and then ask a question. You can interject.

Reportedly, 109,000 public servants joined the ranks of the public service in one year. There were 368,000 employees in 2024, an increase of 109,000.

I'm trying to understand something. There are more public servants, but when I ask why more consultants are being used, I'm told that there are fewer resources. If there are more public servants, meaning more resources, I fail to understand why more outside contracts are being awarded.

Then, Mr. Pilon, in response to the question I asked you earlier, you quickly answered that McKinsey didn't get a contract. You may have answered quickly given all the problems with McKinsey. However, it took a bit more effort to get the name Excel Human Resources, and it wasn't easy to find out which public servant was dismissed or not dismissed.

I don't know, Mr. Pilon or Ms. Carruthers, whether you can respond or provide some clarity with regard to my questions.

[Daniel Pilon]

I apologize, but I cannot speak to the number of employees in the public service, because that's outside my area of expertise.

It took me a moment to see the name of the company, because I had to put on my glasses. That said, we're going to give you the name of the manager in question, but I can tell you that the issue was addressed with the employee, the manager and their supervisor. We were quite clear and we explained that the processes used by that manager were not acceptable. Measures were put in place. They're probably related to staffing and employment, given the reprimand. As the contracting manager, I don't have access to that information. I don't see individuals' personnel files.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Where's that manager now, Mr. Pilon?

[Daniel Pilon]

We're going to get you that information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give us a brief answer, please.

[Daniel Pilon]

I don't have that information with me. I'm sorry. The department has 6,000 employees across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I assume you'll get back to us with that.

[Daniel Pilon]

Yes, we'll certainly do that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wonderful. Thanks very much.

Ms. Zarrillo, please go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to revisit data privacy with the lens of foreign interference, which we've been talking about in Parliament.

Five years ago, the Office of the Privacy Commissioner issued an alert on contracting out and said that those services “can raise certain risks for privacy”—I think about Canadians here—and that it's “important to consider the privacy implications”. For federal government institutions, the Privacy Commissioner made some recommendations. Those included defining the “ownership of the information” when contracting out, recognizing “individuals' rights of access to their personal information” in regard to contracting out, restricting “further uses of the personal data” to contractors, protecting “information against unauthorized disclosure” and having written into contracts “retention and disposal criteria”.

All of that is top of mind for me and the NDP right now as we think about protecting Canadians. Has this been taken on and adopted in regard to outsourcing at Global Affairs?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Yes, this is definitely something that Global Affairs has addressed.

Perhaps I can turn to my colleague Dan Pilon, who can provide you with some additional details.

[Daniel Pilon]

Every contract that is awarded by Global Affairs, as per government policy, goes through an assessment. As you've probably heard before, there is a security requirements checklist, which is standard procedure, where an analysis is done on the sensitivity linked to the contract regarding privacy, national security, communication security and so forth. A thorough review is done. That form is then used to feed consultation within the department. If security sensitivities are identified, experts are brought in. If that is the case, we determine an appropriate path in procurement that safeguards information or the subject matter.

Every single contract in the Government of Canada, and especially at Global Affairs, is supposed to undergo that analysis. Our review has demonstrated that we routinely use this form. Definitely, for anything over $10,000 for which a physical contract is issued, we do that.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Pilon, I'm just going to clarify something. I really want to know about people's personal information and whether that's protected and written into contracts when outsourcing.

As a follow-up question, is that information accessible? Is information that's held by an outsourced organization accessible, whether it's through ATIPs or any kind of transparency questions from the residents or constituents of Canada?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid we're past our time again. You'll have one more intervention, Ms. Zarrillo, or perhaps we'll get that in writing. I'll leave it up to you during your next intervention.

We're going to try Mr. Brock again.

Mr. Brock, can you just give us a few words and we'll check with interpretation?

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Yes. I hope I'm coming through loud and clear without causing any harm to our excellent interpreters. I've had some good assistance from the IT team over the last half an hour.

Are there any issues?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It appears your volume is coming in quite low.

Why don't we start? If there are problems with interpretation, we'll probably have to skip over to Mrs. Block or Mr. Genuis.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a question for Ms. Lalonde.

Much earlier in the meeting, you provided a response to a question about the procurement process at Global Affairs. You made a comment that the process is “complex”. That's your word. I'm going to push back. I'm going to suggest to you that the process is not complex with respect to procurement across all ministries, particularly your ministry, when the people who are in charge of procurement do their jobs honestly and follow the rules.

Would you agree with that?