Government Operations Committee on May 15th, 2024

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Ms. Carruthers, did your audit findings lead to any suppliers being excluded from future procurement processes?

[Shirley Carruthers]

The answer to that question is no.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I don't have much time left, but I will quickly get this out. According to the management response and action plan, starting in January 2024, the results of monitoring compliance with authorities will be communicated via a scorecard to the assistant deputy ministers, and by July 2024 a number of other measures will be implemented.

What are the results of the latest scorecard?

[Shirley Carruthers]

I haven't actually seen the results of the latest scorecard. The only number I've seen recently was with respect to our postaudit verifications. I think I've mentioned this number a couple of times already this afternoon: Our non-compliance rate has decreased to 3% of cases. However, I can certainly provide the committee with a copy of that dashboard if it's valuable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Larouche, you have two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to focus on the issue of consultants.

Ms. Carruthers, were the reasons for using consultants addressed in the audit?

If not, can you tell me why not?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Thank you very much for the question.

In general, the department uses consultants in situations where there is a lack of resources. That's the case, for example, for the information technology group.

From time to time, we don't have the resources we need to implement new systems or cutting-edge initiatives in the field.

Another reason we might use these types of resources is if we have a project to deliver, for example, that has a short duration and it wouldn't make sense from a value-for-money perspective or a resourcing perspective to hire a full-time resource to do that body of work.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

That remains a problem, Ms. Carruthers.

Did your audit examine why the decision was made to turn to McKinsey instead of relying on internal expertise?

You're talking about a lack of resources and experience, but there's a problem when you can't use internal resources.

I'd like to hear your comments on that question.

Also, what did the contracts awarded to McKinsey seek to improve?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Our department did not award any contracts to McKinsey.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You didn't answer my question.

The fact that the department is increasingly doing business with consultants is problematic. It's causing various problems.

Why did you decide to turn to McKinsey rather than using internal resources?

Additionally, what exactly did McKinsey's services seek to improve?

[Shirley Carruthers]

I'll let my colleague Mr. Pilon respond to that question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give a brief answer.

[Daniel Pilon]

Thank you.

I want to clarify that Global Affairs Canada did not sign any contracts with McKinsey. However, we use consulting services and we sign contracts with consultants. That's part of our regular contracting activities.

Furthermore, as Ms. Carruthers indicated, we often use consultants to meet a need for expertise in very complicated and complex international fields.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Zarrillo, please go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are related to some of the document deficiencies.

It was outlined in the audit that it looked like there were some widespread document deficiencies. I have two questions. What was it within the internal culture that allowed for a widespread lack of documentation, and how has that been addressed?

[Shirley Carruthers]

First of all, information management is definitely something we as a department need to tackle from a cultural perspective.

Thinking about the results of this audit in particular, there were a number of reasons that the audit wasn't able to identify documentation. In some cases, it wasn't that the proper documentation wasn't there or the proper due diligence wasn't performed, but that the documents just weren't readily available to the auditor when they were looking for them. For example, as I mentioned before, some of the documentation would have resided within the mission network. It could have been an instance where an employee left the department and the documentation couldn't be found. We see this as an issue, and it's something we're working very hard to resolve within the department. We know it's very important to maintain these records and have them available.

To rectify this issue, we are working on training for our employees, tackling it from a cultural perspective and making sure folks understand what's important. Then, of course, there's looking at a global information management strategy, one in which we would have a global platform where we could store our information. It could be readily available so people who reside in Ottawa can access documents at missions, and people at missions can access documents that are maintained in Ottawa. Obviously, this would go a long way toward increasing not only compliance with an audit but general practices within the department.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I think I have time for one last question, which is—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No, I'm afraid you're past your time. I'm sorry, but you'll have a couple of more interventions.

Mr. Brock, go ahead, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Ms. Lalonde, although you weren't sworn in or didn't affirm to tell the truth, any witness who appears at a parliamentary committee is expected to tell the truth. My first question to you is this: Prior to your attendance today, did you read your audit?

[Natalie Lalonde]

Yes, of course I read my audit.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You just responded to a question put to you by my colleague Mrs. Block that there were no cases of contract splitting, which allows consultants to abuse taxpayer money. You said there were no instances. The report states in section 2.1, under the heading “Contract splitting”, “Through the review of both the statistical random and risk-based sample, the audit team assessed whether there were instances of contract splitting. In the statistical random sample”—

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Mr. Brock.

Go ahead, Ms. Larouche.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

These days, we're reminded of how important it is to keep in mind our interpreters' health. I'm being told that the sound quality is poor.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please wait one moment.

Mr. Brock, our interpreters are saying that your sound quality is bad. I hate to do this, but are you okay if we switch over to Mr. Genuis, and we'll have IT contact you?