Government Operations Committee on May 15th, 2024

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Genuis's audio is poor, which is making it difficult for the interpreters to work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Let's just pause for a couple of seconds. I'm going to check with the clerk and the interpreters to see what's going on.

You're coming across very strong in the room, but the interpreters are asking if you could move the mic a bit closer to your mouth, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

How is that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

IT is going to contact you.

We're going to suspend for about five minutes until we get this sorted out.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, I can share the remainder of my time with a Conservative colleague. That might be better. Then we can continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Sure. Why don't we switch to Mrs. Block, and then IT can contact you off-line, Mr. Genuis?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Sure.

Why don't we switch to Mrs. Block, and then IT can contact you off-line, Mr. Genuis?

Go ahead, Mrs. Block, for two minutes.

I'm sorry, Mrs. Block, but you're not coming through. Either you're muted or your headset isn't plugged in.

Can we go to you, Mr. Brock?

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You can, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Why don't we go to Mr. Brock for two minutes?

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, witnesses, for your attendance.

I apologize. I also had some technical difficulties, and I didn't listen to your opening remarks, but I received some notes.

Anyone can answer this question, but I think it's probably more appropriate for you, Ms. Carruthers.

Your opinion is that you took a proactive approach to not only the audit itself but also the recommendations. Isn't it fair to say that you were caught with your hand in the cookie jar and that the jig was up? Public opinion was very strong with regard to the failed, corrupt practices exhibited by a number of departments in terms of contracting with outside consultants. It wasn't an issue of you taking proactive measures within your own department, but that the public demanded more transparency and accountability. Is that a better way of phrasing what's really going on here?

[Shirley Carruthers]

We did take proactive measures in that we weren't conducting this audit because we believed or were notified that there was any wrongdoing within the department. It was a way for us to assess the internal controls that we have in the system so that we could better address any issues that came up—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I would push back on that a bit, Ms. Carruthers, because we had a similar audit in 2019. A lot of the findings on the irregularities of contracting practices—contract splitting, a number of contracts not being signed properly and people not having the appropriate authority—were revealed in 2019, four years ago. I don't know how long you've been in your current role or at Global Affairs, but clearly nothing was learned and there wasn't any sort of systemic change within the department, because this is déjà vu all over again. Isn't that a fair statement?

[Shirley Carruthers]

The time frame for this audit was from April 2018 to June 2023. Over the course of that period, the department did make a lot of changes to its system to rectify a lot of these issues. In fact, I think if you went back—which we have—and looked over the last couple of years, you would see that we've reduced the occurrence of errors in our post-payment verification process. If we look back—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

To be frank—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's time, but I'm sure we'll get back to it in the next round.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Jowhari, please go ahead.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the officials for joining us today.

Ms. Carruthers, it was very interesting that you noted this was a proactive decision by the department. As I was reading the report that, again, your department put out proactively, I noticed the number 8,000, which was already mentioned, and a sample size of 100, with you looking at how many vendors were awarded contracts—there was competition—and how many were not. We'll get to that later, but as I was going through these numbers and thinking about the period from 2018 to 2023, I noticed that the world has gone through a lot since then. What came to my mind immediately was the list of events that have happened in the world since then and even before that [Technical difficulty—Editor]—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Mr. Jowhari, but I'm going to interrupt you because we lost you there. Can you go back about 30 seconds, please?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd be remiss if I didn't say that as I was looking at the period from April 2018 to June 2023.... As you were going through a lot of transformation within the department, the world was going through a huge transformation and a lot of challenges.

Can you share with us the challenges that the department, Global Affairs, was managing? How were you navigating [Technical difficulty—Editor] serious challenges related to NAFTA, COVID-19, etc.?

[Shirley Carruthers]

As I mentioned before, the audit took place from April 2018 to June 2023. Obviously, within that time, the department was grappling with a lot of crises and events, including the global pandemic. If you think about the fact that we weren't able to locate some of our documentation, a lot of it stems from the period during which we were repatriating some of our foreign service officers from abroad to Canada, for example. In some cases, the contracts were put in place while those officers were in one location, and then the payment was signed when they were in another location.

I think it's also important to note that, within our department, we have been able to do a lot of updates to our IT system. Over the last 25 years, Global Affairs Canada, in our missions network.... Each mission has a separate repository to store its information. Information management has been a bit of a recurring theme.

I am happy to report that, due to our GAC transformation initiative, one thing that has been highlighted and that the department is working on is moving to one global platform for information management. This will go a long way toward helping our department mitigate risks where we're unable to locate documentation.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

It looks like the department was going through change, and because of the situation that we were facing globally, there were impacts on some of our missions.

Can you talk about the impact on our diplomats and other staff during that period and how that could have impacted some of the findings you had?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Yes, certainly.

As I was mentioning, this was a time of tremendous activity within the department, both abroad and locally. At that time, folks were doing their best to put different contracts in place and deal with the situation we had at hand.

Going back to the audit and looking at the overall errors that took place, while there were compliance issues and...the integrity of the contracting process, nothing in it signalled any kind of wrongdoing, like the misuse of funds, and nothing indicated that we weren't able to provide value for money for Canadians. Obviously, it did point to some errors that were unfortunate, but I feel very confident that the department now has the tools and processes in place to mitigate these risks moving forward.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

With about 40 seconds left, can you tell me how you have had to shift all your resources or develop new innovative ideas to adapt to not only the situations we are facing globally, but also the mandate that Global Affairs Canada has set for itself for transformation?