Government Operations Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Annie Boudreau]

Thank you for that very important question.

If you look at the main estimates, you will see an increase of the budget. There is for sure a gap: the amount you have referred to. We have met—I have met—with the commissioner. My colleague also met with the commissioner. We're doing everything we can to understand the situation and to move forward. We have options and solutions, but again, I just want to stress the fact that we see an increase in the main estimates for that budget.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Just to confirm, there's been an even greater shortfall. There has been some increase, but it isn't quite where it needs to be in order for the Integrity Commissioner to do their work.

[Annie Boudreau]

Just to be clear, the gap that has been highlighted is based on the formula we are using for all organizations across government. It is a formula that is flexible, as well as consistent. It's for all 90 organizations receiving money from Parliament.

Did you want to add something?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid we're past time already.

Mr. Jowhari, please go ahead.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll also join my colleagues in congratulating you, Madame Boudreau, on your appointment.

I'm going to focus my questions on RGS—refocused government spending.

As you know, Madame Boudreau, your department is heavily focused on delivering on the refocused government spending initiatives. The main estimates provide some details on this, including $2.5 billion in reallocated funding. That's up drastically from the $500 million for last fiscal year.

How does this reallocation impact the services delivered by other departments, and what impact does this have on Canadian taxpayers?

[Annie Boudreau]

Thank you for the question.

As indicated in budget 2023, this exercise was meant to refocus funds from lower priorities to higher priorities. The budget wording was very clear. Services to Canadians were not to be impacted, nor were the Canadian Armed Forces budget and direct transfers to provinces, territories and indigenous communities.

We followed the instructions in the budget, while not impacting services to Canadians.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

There's no impact to the taxpayers. Fair enough.

Is this a one-time initiative, or is this something the departments should expect on an ongoing or annual basis—looking into identifying areas for better services using around 15%?

[Annie Boudreau]

This is a multi-year initiative. It started in budget 2023. A second phase was also included in budget 2024. The second phase in budget 2024 talks about operating.

As you mentioned, I think it's just good hygiene in every organization to look at a budget to make sure you are focusing on priorities. When I was the CFO of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, I was doing that work every year to make sure the money was available for Canadians and stakeholders.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Which department do you anticipate will see the greatest opportunity for benefiting from this program?

[Annie Boudreau]

If you look at the main estimates, you will find an online annex, where you can see all the refocused money among organizations. I think we have, in total, 80-something organizations included in this initiative. However, as I mentioned, we now have phase two. We are working on the methodology. As the president mentioned last week, the information will be provided once the methodology has been established.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

You talked about phase one and phase two. Do you anticipate the nature of RGS will change over the next, let's say, few years?

[Annie Boudreau]

It is multi-year, with amounts per calendar year well established in the budget. However, as I was saying, this is something all organizations should be doing every year—looking at their own funding models to make sure they are effective in that way.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

How collaborative have you found the relationship between TBS and other departments to be around this initiative? Is everyone embracing it? Is it considered more like an instruction coming down, or is it an opportunity for us to work together to look at some of the policy changes and enabling tools, as well as the desire to work together?

[Annie Boudreau]

My team has been working very closely with all organizations trying to understand their unique perspectives and circumstances. That was all factored into the review the president was able to table at the end of February.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

That's great.

I have only about 20 seconds. I take it that it was a collaborative approach. You looked at the uniqueness of each one of the departments, you sat down, you figured out where the greatest opportunity was from different levels—whether operational, capex, etc.—and you collectively put that program together.

[Annie Boudreau]

That is correct.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I yield the rest of my two seconds back to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you for your generosity, as always, Mr. Jowhari.

We go to Mrs. Vignola for two and a half minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Boudreau, can you remember roughly how much money was spent on consulting services last year and how much spending in that area is estimated for this year in all departments?

[Annie Boudreau]

The public accounts from last year show that $19 billion was spent on professional services. That's a large amount, but those services are allocated over 14 categories, including consulting services, and the amount indicated for those services is $838 million, which represents approximately 5% of $19 billion.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I haven't looked at the Supplementary Estimates (A), but the 2024–2025 Main Estimates show that the Canada School of Public Service has a total budget of $87,838,771 and that slightly more than $64 million of that amount is earmarked for training.

Given that consultants receive some $830 million and that those consultations don't always produce lasting results, would it be a good idea to turn this into a professional service at the Canada School of Public Service and train people within government who could act as consultants and keep up with the latest trends? That way we could stop paying for outside services.

[Annie Boudreau]

I entirely agree. Most of the time, management consultants are brought in to meet one-time demands when an organization has no expertise. However, I entirely agree with you that we should invest in training for public service employees.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Managers should normally have basic management skills when they reach this level in the public service. If they don't, we should give them an opportunity to acquire them and become more professional rather than bring in outside support. That's my thinking.

[Annie Boudreau]

I support your thinking. My colleague here works very closely with the School of Public Service so that we can offer more specific training to people who work in the contracting field.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mrs. Vignola.

We go to Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes, please.