Government Operations Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To return to my previous line of questioning about the return-to-office directive, some of the feedback I'm hearing from public servants is that the physical space they're being asked to return to is not sufficient for them to have a productive work day. They're talking about a lack of physical space, being asked to share a desk with another employee and being in an environment where there isn't adequate privacy or ability to focus.

I recognize that there are diverse workplaces across the public sector, obviously, and that there are some very unusual ones where this wouldn't apply, but for an average office work environment—someone who's working at a desk eight hours a day—does the public service have standards? Does the government have standards for what an employee should be able to expect in that environment in terms of noise, physical space, safety from workplace hazards and those sorts of things?

[Jean-François Fleury]

In terms of standards I think it's either.... PSPC would have those standards, but I will say that there are challenges in certain buildings. Those challenges are not everywhere. There are many other areas where it's working out.

We are giving a heads-up of four months for organizations that have particular challenges—for some it's buildings, for some it's technology—to work those through, either with SSC or PSPC. We are also urging departments to work with their UMCCs, their union-management committees, to ensure that the specificity of the issues that need to be managed in the next four months, and so on, are really discussed openly in the context of the implementation of this direction.

I don't know if you have anything to add. In terms of those standards, I believe it's PSPC that would have those.

[Samantha Tattersall]

PSPC is like the general manager for offices across government, so it would set standards in terms of accommodation within buildings.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Do those standards exist with PSPC?

[Samantha Tattersall]

It would set out the fit-up for office space. Again, I know PSPC are appearing right after us. I don't want to misspeak for them.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll hold fire until the next panel.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We have Mr. Genuis, please, and then Mr. Sousa.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I assume can start again, Chair.

I want to thank the officials for being here.

I'm following up on my questions for the ministers, which related primarily to indigenous procurement.

In plain language, how does the government define an indigenous business?

[Samantha Tattersall]

It's a great question.

In terms of indigenous procurement programs, there's the procurement strategy for indigenous businesses, which is a set-aside program that ISC manages. ISC determines the eligibility for that program, so it would be best positioned to answer that.

For the 5%, to be eligible they have to be registered on the indigenous business directory or registered on a modern treaty beneficiary business list.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

There may and likely are businesses that are owned by indigenous people or that would meet the criteria but which are not registered for whatever reason—because they're not aware of it, they haven't been able to fill out the paperwork or whatever the case may be.

[Samantha Tattersall]

It's possible.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I was looking through some of the documents that this committee has gotten on this issue and was curious to know what percentage of registered indigenous businesses are located in the national capital region versus outside of it?

[Samantha Tattersall]

I wouldn't have that answer. ISC would have that answer because it manages the directory.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'd be curious to know that and also what percentage of those businesses are actually located in indigenous communities.

I understand that you don't have that information, but are you able to get that and share it with the committee? We don't have those officials coming before us, typically.

[Samantha Tattersall]

We'd have to follow up with the ISC.

[Annie Boudreau]

We'll follow up with the organization and try to come back to the committee.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Can that be registered as a request for information, Chair? We'll get that information one way or the other.

The minister talked in her testimony about the subcontracting requirement and the procurement. The procurement minister didn't even seem to know this, but your minister did.

It's the one-third requirement that she mentioned, which is that if an indigenous business receives contracts as part of that set-aside, one-third of the subcontracts have to be indigenous. Presumably, they have to also be on the same list.

We have requested information at this committee about subcontractors. In almost every case, we've received no information from departments about subcontracting. That seems to not be identified or tracked at all.

Am I correct in understanding from this that there is no oversight around whether or not this requirement is met?

[Samantha Tattersall]

Maybe I'll take the question.

For PSIB, as you've correctly identified, there is a 33% requirement. Of the total contract value, 33% must be done by a business that is either 51% owned or controlled.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Just to clarify, do they also have to be on the list? If they are owned and controlled but not on the list, would they qualify for that one-third?

[Samantha Tattersall]

Sorry, I'm getting my PSIB stuff out.

They would either have to be on the list or listed on a modern treaty business list or directory.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

They would have to meet the criteria for the set-aside in order to get the one-third.

[Samantha Tattersall]

That's correct. Then it's 51% owned or controlled and 33% of the total value of the contract must be done by that business.

As for verifying that, it should be part of the terms and conditions of the contract. In addition, ISC can do postaudits to verify the 33%.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

ISC can do postaudits. How often do those postaudits...?

[Samantha Tattersall]

That would be a question for ISC.

I can tell you that the client department can request a postaudit of ISC, but in terms of how often or how that's triggered, that's really for ISC.