Evidence of meeting #126 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pspc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Annie Boudreau  Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Heidi Kutz  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat
Stephen Burt  Chief Data Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Performance Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Rod Greenough  Acting Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Jean-François Fleury  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Directions and Digital Solutions, Treasury Board Secretariat
Samantha Tattersall  Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karen Cahill  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Arianne Reza  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Catherine Poulin  Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Wojo Zielonka  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Finance Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Dominic Laporte  Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Simon Page  Assistant Deputy Minister, Defence and Marine Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 126 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, known widely as the mighty OGGO.

Before we start, I want to remind everyone to keep their earpiece away from the microphones at all times so that we are protecting the health of our very valued translators.

We will do this for one hour, and then we're going to suspend for about five minutes to switch over to PSPC. I will need about 30 seconds at the end of the meeting to approve three small budgets, please.

We'd like to welcome back TBS.

Ms. Boudreau, this is your final meeting with TBS at OGGO. Congratulations on your new appointment.

We'll give the floor to you for five minutes and one bonus second in recognition of your promotion to comptroller general. Use that one second wisely, Ms. Boudreau.

Please go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Annie Boudreau Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to take this opportunity to follow up on questions about the main estimates in last Wednesday's meeting with the President of the Treasury Board and her officials, as requested by the committee.

With respect to actual and planned spending on the Secretariat's fundamental responsibility for spending oversight, the 2024–25 Main Estimates include $5.2 billion in planned expenditures. Of that amount, $45.7 million is earmarked for the Secretariat's program spending in connection with its role as a central agency and administrative body of Treasury Board. That figure is comparable to the $44.1 million of actual spending that the department incurred and declared in the 2022–2023 Departmental Results Report.

The balance consists of funds for central credits, which are transferred from the Treasury Board Secretariat to the individual departments and agencies throughout the fiscal year once specific criteria have been met. Central credits are used to supplement other credits in accordance with eligibility criteria. For example, two credits are used to carry over unspent funds within limits established from one fiscal year to the next. There is also the Paylist Requirements Vote, which is used to reimburse organizations for certain types of expenditures, such as parental and maternity benefits and severance payments.

Departments receiving funding from central votes will report on this funding as part of their own departmental reporting.

Another question concerned the budget of the task force responsible for examining Bill C-290, the Act to amend the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act. In the 2022 budget, $2.4 million was allocated over five years to study that bill, starting in 2022–2023. The budget is still considered sufficient to support the task force's work and hasn't been adjusted since then.

Expenditures to date have been as follows.

In 2022–2023, $37,000 was allocated for salaries and $16,535 for operation and maintenance costs.

In 2023–2024, $223,592 was spent on salaries and $25,323 on operation and maintenance costs.

Lastly, for 2024–2025, planned expenditures consist of $285,972 for salaries and $35,250 for operation and maintenance costs.

These salary-related funds have been used to compensate the staff responsible for supporting the task force by, for example, organizing meetings, preparing documents, liaising with stakeholders and conducting research.

Task force members have volunteered their time and expertise. The operation and maintenance expenses cover the costs incurred by task force members not residing in Ottawa to travel to that city for in-person meetings as well as translation and earpieces for virtual meetings.

Lastly, regarding service standards, let me say that the Government of Canada provides numerous important and distinct services such as employment insurance, old age security, border services, food inspection and passport issuance, to name only a few.

These services are delivered under diverse operational conditions by departments with differing mandates and funding levels.

Different services have different standards because they operate under a variety of conditions for a diverse set of clients.

A good service standard includes an objective that's clear, measurable and ambitious but also realistic. It takes into consideration the department's capacity to provide the benefits that Canadians expect under normal operating conditions.

These standards are regularly reviewed and updated as necessary. If we achieve an 80% success rate in meeting a standard, for example, we may expect that the vast majority of Canadians are receiving the service provided in accordance with the standard, with due consideration being given to the fact that certain cases are more complex, that the operating environment may be subject to unusual tensions and that technical and human errors may occur from time to time.

If a service standard is fully met, that means that the standard is too low, that too many resources have been allocated to the service or that an error has been made in reporting the standard.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my remarks.

I would be more than happy, along with my colleagues, to answer all your questions.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

We'll start with Mrs. Kusie, please.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Boudreau, congratulations on your appointment to this position.

Madame Boudreau, the Treasury Board was asked to provide the names of the public servants who were double-dipping and had conflicts of interest while working for the Government of Canada. This information was meant to be sent to the public accounts accounts by May 31. We are still awaiting this information.

Has this information been submitted as of yet, please?

11:05 a.m.

Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Annie Boudreau

We'll have to do a switchover at the table. My apologies.

My colleague will be in a position to answer your question.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm actually going to suspend for a couple seconds because we have a translation issue.... I am hearing some translation, but it's very low.

Would you mind testing it?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As I was indicating, we are waiting for these names.

When will they be provided, please?

June 3rd, 2024 / 11:10 a.m.

Heidi Kutz Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Good morning.

My name is Heidi Kutz. I am the associate ADM of people and culture in OCHRO at the Treasury Board.

With respect to that question, I can advise you that the response to the question by the committee was deposited late on Friday.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Excellent.

Will this information be sent to the government operations committee as well, please?

11:10 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Heidi Kutz

On that, I would certainly defer to parliamentary relations and relations between the committees, but I understand that it could be facilitated.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Excellent.

Given that this information has been submitted, can you please give an indication as to the dollar amount of contracts that were found to be in conflict of interest?

What was the total amount that was found to be in this unique situation?

11:10 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Heidi Kutz

Thank you for the question.

I do not have the detailed information on hand, so I won't be in a position to respond to that question today.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Can you provide a number of the individuals, corporations or consultants found to be in this conflict of interest situation, in addition to the total number of contracts, please?

11:10 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Heidi Kutz

I'm sorry, perhaps you can bear with me for just a moment. I can advise that the information requested covered the periods of 2022 and 2023 with respect to individuals who had articulated a conflict of interest with respect to a contracting relationship.

The information that has been provided.... I apologize. I don't see it—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

It's fine, Madam Kutz.

11:10 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Heidi Kutz

Excuse me, I'm sorry. I do have the answer. It's 79 in 2022-23 and 84 in 2023-24.

I'm sorry for the delay.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Can you say it one more time, please? What was that number?

11:10 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Heidi Kutz

It was 79 in fiscal year 2022-23 and 84 in fiscal year 2023-24.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

You don't have the dollar amount of those 79.

11:10 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Heidi Kutz

I do not.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you so much.

Of those 79, how many were referred to the RCMP, please?

11:10 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Heidi Kutz

With reference to individuals submitting conflict of interest declarations....

That's the initiation of a process where an individual is understood to be in a perceived, actual, or possible future conflict of interest.

The process of submitting those applications means it is then reviewed, and if it is possible to mitigate those conflicts of interest, mitigation measures are put into place.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Can you share with Canadians, please, any wrongdoing that was detected? Basically, what I am discerning from your response is that you found that 79 were in this conflict of interest. You cannot confirm the total dollar amount at this moment.

Were they all referred to the RCMP? Is this what you're indicating?

11:10 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Treasury Board Secretariat

Heidi Kutz

No. To be clear, what I'd like to underscore is that the completion of a declaration does not signify or suggest any wrongdoing; rather, it demonstrates that employees have acted in full compliance with rules and requirements in reporting the conflict.

On the depositing of a conflict of interest declaration, the evaluation and the review are made as to whether or not the individual is in a real, perceived or potential future conflict of interest. Mitigation measures are put into place where and as appropriate. Where mitigation measures cannot be put into place, the employee has the decision whether to proceed with the contract or to step aside.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

It's quite an extensive answer you're giving. To be clear and simple for Canadians, did you refer them all to the RCMP, or did you not go through an internal process to determine which ones to refer to the RCMP?