Government Operations Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, that last round was light but revealing. My NDP colleague asked the witness how he pronounced his last name, and he consumed literally the entire round offering a very roundabout response to that. I will try again to get very precise answers to precise questions that are of a bit more serious nature. I hope the witness will shift his approach and be direct in his responses. We have taken additional steps to insist on answers from witnesses that have not been direct and responsive to important questions.

I don't really find remotely plausible your story about the DIY accident on your computer because the IT folks were too busy to assist a senior executive.

I want to go back to the text messages. These are text messages the committee received from Mr. MacDonald. You said you don't recall them, but you haven't denied them or said they sound out of character. The text messages we have received include you saying, “My issue is what I want to say vs what I can say”, “[Can't] throw phac under the bus”, and “[Can't] throw Ministers under the bus”, implying that you might want to, but you can't.

Sir, do those sound like texts you might have sent, or do they seem implausible that you would have sent? Give a simple answer.

[Minh Doan]

They seem plausible. I don't believe in throwing people under the bus.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry; they do or they don't?

[Minh Doan]

They do.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

They do seem plausible.

[Minh Doan]

I do not believe in throwing people under the bus.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry; do they seem plausible or not?

[Minh Doan]

They do seem plausible.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

They do seem plausible.

[Minh Doan]

Yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

All right.

If they are plausible, then what would you have liked to say that would throw ministers under the bus?

[Minh Doan]

I do not think that follows from the answer I gave.

What I would like to say, and what I tried to say earlier, is to express my great frustration, after working so hard for two years, at having to testify here and be questioned about the how and why of the situation. It is frustrating to hear that the application is useless, after all the work that a number of people did.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If you're frustrated, that makes two of us. I'm also frustrated. You just told us that it's plausible that you would have talked about how you would like to, but can't, throw ministers under the bus. I'm just wondering what information you had or have that you could have shared, and didn't feel you could share but could have shared, that would have effectively cast blame on ministers.

What is that information?

[Minh Doan]

Perhaps to clarify, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus. It doesn't matter if it's PHAC or ministers. That's not something I believe in doing.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's not the point. The point is that I want you to tell the committee the truth. Without fear or favour, I want you to tell the committee the truth.

What you implied very strongly in these text messages to Mr. MacDonald is that you had information that you could not say, that, if said, would have the effect of casting blame on ministers and on PHAC.

Now, you said it was plausible that you would have sent those text messages. So what is that information?

[Minh Doan]

That “implied”; it's implied by who?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

By you—in text messages that you sent to Mr. MacDonald that have been provided to this committee.

[Minh Doan]

That's not how I interpret those text messages. I've tried to explain that—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

This is what the text messages say, sir, and we're getting to time without you having provided any answer: “My issue is what I want to say vs what I can say”, “[Can't] throw phac under the bus”, and “[Can't] throw Ministers under the bus”.

I've read these a dozen times so far. Could you explain to us—

[Minh Doan]

I agree with that. I can't throw people under the bus.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Right. But you said before that, “My issue is what I want to say vs what I can say”.

[Minh Doan]

Mr. Chair, I—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You were saying that there are certain things you can't say that you want to say. What are the things—

[Minh Doan]

Mr. Chair, I—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

—you can't say that you want to say, that, if said, would cast blame on ministers of the Crown?