Evidence of meeting #127 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was emails.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard
Minh Doan  Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting 127 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, widely known as the mighty OGGO.

Welcome back, Mr. Doan.

Before we start, I will go over a few things. We agreed to some accommodation measures for our witness today. Mr. Doan will be making an opening statement. We're going to do a five-minute break after the first round; a five-minute break after the second round; after the third round, which will take us about halfway through, we'll provide a 10-minute break; and then after the round after that there will be a five-minute break.

Mr. Doan is obviously appearing by video conference. He's accompanied by his counsel, and we will allow suspensions or breaks for Mr. Doan to refer to his counsel, at which time we will suspend the clock so you don't miss out on your questioning. Mr. Doan is aware that his counsel, though, has to remain off-camera at all times. If at any time Mr. Doan's health does not permit him to continue his testimony, the meeting could be suspended or adjourned, provided that Mr. Doan accepts that he will be required to reattend to complete the testimony in the future.

Just on a different point, colleagues, I remind members that, as with any testimony and documentation received by any parliamentary committee of this House, the proceedings today are covered by parliamentary privilege, which means that they cannot be used against any of us, including the witness, in a court of law in this country. This allows us to proceed with our inquiry with complete freedom. I refer members to the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, pages 89 to 95 for your reference.

Mr. Doan, again, welcome back. We start with your opening statement.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

I have a point of order, Chair.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Before I get to the first point of order and then to Mrs. Vignola, I should say that normally I'm a bit liberal with watching the clock. Today I am going to keep everyone to exactly five minutes or six minutes, so leave time for an answer. I will be cutting everyone off exactly at that time.

Mr. Brock, go ahead.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Chair.

As I indicated to you the last time that this witness appeared at committee last fall, given the contentious nature of the evidence, it would be prudent to have the witness sworn to tell the truth, and I make that request again today.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I was expecting that. I think Mr. Doan was probably expecting that as well.

If we're fine, I'll turn it over to the clerk for that, and then I'll get to Mrs. Vignola. Let me just attend to this first, Mrs. Vignola.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

No. I'm sorry. I will turn it over to the clerk to just swear in the witness, and then I'll get to you, Mrs. Vignola.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I'm sorry.

5:15 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Doan, with a hand on the religious text of your choice.... Well, you have two options. You can perform a serment, an oath, or you can choose to make a solemn affirmation. Which do you choose?

5:15 p.m.

Minh Doan Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

I'll do a solemn affirmation.

5:15 p.m.

The Clerk

Please repeat after me: “I, Minh Doan, do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is, according to my religious belief, unlawful. I do also solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.”

5:15 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

I, Minh Doan, do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath, according to my religious belief, is unlawful. I do also solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5:15 p.m.

The Clerk

Thank you very much, sir.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks, Mr. Doan.

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to make sure the tests have been done in accordance with the Standing Orders, for the interpreters' well-being.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Yes, they were done.

Mr. Doan, I'm sorry for the interruption. Please proceed with your opening statement.

5:15 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee.

Like most Canadians, I would prefer to not make my health issues public. However, as a result of some comments made in this committee, this is no longer possible.

In 2015, I had a heart attack, was rushed to the hospital, underwent emergency surgery and had two stents installed. I have had attacks of angina since. Stress has direct and life-threatening ramifications for me. I have been on medical leave since January of this year and I'm still currently on medical leave. There is nothing convenient about heart disease.

I am here today against my doctor's advice to avoid stress because I want to set the record straight on some points. Before speaking to the specific issues, I want to thank the committee for the accommodations it has extended to me, including delaying my appearance and for my appearance today.

The first is my involvement in the ArriveCAN development. As CIO, my role is to provide strategic IT direction. My role was not to determine specifically how the program was to be delivered at an operational level. Once I made a strategic decision, responsibility for the technical implementation was delegated to a senior executive at the EX 3 level to get the job done.

The question of who chose GC Strategies continues to be asked. The problem with this question is there are two questions and two answers, not one.

I already made clear at my last appearance that I picked a strategic direction to use in-house resources with staff augmentation. I am accountable for that decision and I stand behind it. However, I did not decide on a company. When I was presented with the two options, the staff augmentation proposal contained only technical information and did not include any information regarding GC Strategies. They were never mentioned, nor did I make any decision to specifically engage them.

This leads me to the other important question that isn't being asked. Who brought GC Strategies on board? How were they even aware of CBSA's urgent need for an app? Who asked them for proposals or mock-ups? Who had a relationship with them dating back years before the pandemic? That clearly was not me.

Sworn affidavits were recently filed in the Federal Court by Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano. I quote from Mr. MacDonald's affidavit. He said that Mr. Utano was involved in exploring options to be presented. The internal group of which Utano was part of ultimately recommended GC Strategies as the solution.

With respect to Deloitte, I also quote from Mr. Utano's affidavit. He said that Deloitte would have developed the application entirely within their operation, while GC Strategies would employ a series of external programmers who would develop the application such that CBSA could operate and modify the application once CBSA personnel were trained.

Those are their words, not mine. I had no telephone calls with GC Strategies, but I've seen reported in The Globe and Mail that others had hundreds of phone calls with them, not only during COVID, but dating back two years before the pandemic even began.

I did not attend any events with GC Strategies, nor was I even invited to these events. Botler's initial report supports that I did not have a relationship with GC Strategies. It also noted conscious efforts by members of my team to hide information from me.

Secondly, on the allegation that I moved files around to intentionally delete emails to hide evidence, this is false.

I needed to change my laptop because the battery on my current one was failing. When transferring files from my old computer to my new one, files were corrupted and the emails were lost. I personally reported this to my team to attempt a recovery of the emails. I believe CBSA still has these laptops and files in its possession.

Everyone knows emails do not reside solely on a particular computer or laptop. They are delivered through servers where they are usually backed up. In the case of CBSA, the servers in question are under control of another department—Shared Services Canada. More importantly, all recipients, senders and people on cc would still have copies of their emails from me and could have produced them as required. Neither I nor anyone else can delete other individuals' copies of emails. The loss of emails from my laptop would not result in them no longer existing anywhere else.

As a member of the executive team at CBSA at the time, I accept responsibility for the institutional and public service accountability for what occurs within the organization. I learn from the findings and recommendations when policies and programs are not proceeded with according to the rules in place, as was highlighted in the OAG and OPO reports.

At the same time, my delegated tasks will be completed by those under my authority, particularly to individuals at senior executive EX 3 levels. I should reasonably be able to expect that they will do so in accordance with all applicable standards, laws and regulations, and that they will flag to me things that require my attention. This is core to how delegation works.

In this case, it appears my trust was misplaced. In hindsight, knowing what I know now, I should have asked more questions and challenged more of those reporting to me. For those failures, I take full responsibility.

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks very much, Mr. Doan.

We'll start with Mr. Barrett for six minutes, please.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Mr. Doan, you're the chief technology officer of Canada.

How long have you been working with computers and IT?

5:20 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

It's been over 25 years.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Do you have training in computer science?

5:20 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Do you have an accreditation?

5:20 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

I have a bachelor's degree in computer science.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Would you describe yourself as an IT expert?