Government Operations Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sorry?

[Minh Doan]

I would refer you to CBSA. Then I'll make the request for it.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That is mind-boggling, sir, that truly is. Do you understand the content of the allegations, sir?

[Minh Doan]

I—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Let me help you with that.

[Minh Doan]

I would like to remind the chair—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, it is my time.

The complaint states as follows: that you approached this IT employee “directly, going around proper protocol for requesting technical support.” You said that some files were lost when you attempted to “move files between” your “laptop and the network drive in preparation for a new computer.”

The complaint states: What Mr. Doan “was telling me or saying...made no sense. I have never heard of a VP or an individual who receives VIP treatment in regards to [an] IT related task...taking it upon themselves to move files or organize information in the way he suggested”.

Also: “The complainant said that Mr. Doan said he was acting on the advice of the CBSA's IT team, but the IT employee expressed skepticism.”

Who on the team gave you that advice? Identify names, please.

[Minh Doan]

I don't know. I can find the name.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Is it one name or is it several names?

[Minh Doan]

The initial person identified that my battery would have been giving up soon or I would have an issue. I can identify that name.

Perhaps one of the reasons I didn't ask for anything is that I have been on medical leave for the past six months. On a doctor's advice I'm supposed to avoid stress would be probably a reason why I have not wanted to engage any further on an investigation about myself.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Will you supply the committee with a name or names?

[Minh Doan]

I will supply the committee with a name.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Atwin, go ahead, please.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Doan, just for context around these text messages, they were given to us by Mr. MacDonald, and he has also sent an email that was to Lucie Despres and Sami Hannoush. In this, he alleges that you and Kelly Belanger worked to set him up.

Who is Kelly Belanger, and is that a fair characterization?

[Minh Doan]

I do not understand in what situation we would have wanted to set Mr. MacDonald up.

As I said, at that time, he was a colleague, a counterpart with whom I still had a good relationship. Kelly Belanger held a director general position during the COVID-19 pandemic. She was then promoted to another position.

She became an associate vice-president and deputy CIO, later on.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

Just moving on from there, the speculation about this lost data or emails is that it would perhaps detail maybe an intimate relationship or involvement with GC Strategies and perhaps hold the key to who made the selection for the CBSA contract for ArriveCAN.

Is that what we're going to find if we get access to these emails?

[Minh Doan]

I think the evidence and testimony that keeps coming out is pretty clear. I have no relationship with GC Strategies.

I heard Mr. Firth confirm that he had never met me outside of the office, yet he had met Mr. MacDonald and other witnesses here, so for Mr. Firth himself, we do not have a relationship.

The same was part of Botler's messages. There was no relationship in one of the social media tweets I saw from Botler. Mr. Firth couldn't even pronounce my four-letter last name.

In terms of some of the findings of who is accountable, I already talked about the court decision.

I do refer you to paragraphs 1.41 and 1.43 of the OAG report that says—and she also testified—that individuals at the “executive director” level who exercise their “delegated authority” in entering contracts and that in exercising their “delegated authority”, they bear the “responsibility and accountability” for their decisions and actions. Therefore, no, you will not find anything that contradicts what I've said today, in terms of my relationship with GC Strategies or in the context of ArriveCAN.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

In your opening statement and just now, you alluded to the fact that perhaps Cameron MacDonald or Antonio Utano did have relationships with GC Strategies, prior to the pandemic, which you referenced specifically.

Do you have any evidence to demonstrate that for our committee?

[Minh Doan]

I have no evidence, and I continue to, and that's why, the last time, I refused to blame Mr. MacDonald.

What I do have is just testimony and what I've seen from publicly available information.

I am still on medical leave. As I prepared for this committee, I did not reach into CBSA to access files or documents. I limited myself to what was publicly available—committee hearings, The Globe and Mail, and other things—while prioritizing my health.

However, from everything I've seen and heard so far, including meetings at Lansdowne and other places, the relationship wouldn't be there.

I think there was also recent testimony at PACP from KPMG that also made some allegations around relationships and who directed what business where.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

Mr. MacDonald and Antonio Utano have also been referred to as whistle-blowers by some of my colleagues across the way. It made it clear to us that they feel personally attacked for having spoken out about what they saw as wrongdoing.

Is that a fair characterization that they're whistle-blowers, speaking truth to power in this situation?

[Minh Doan]

Given what I've suffered through, in terms of both my mental health and my career, I tend to go to what various members have called the original whistle-blowers there in Botler, and Botler was pretty clear in its opinion as to who the people were who had relationships with GC Strategies, dating back years.

I would characterize, as other members here have in the past, Botler as the whistle-blower. Others...I can't speak to how they're being characterized and why.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Okay.

Just to be clear, you mentioned this dinner after the conference with AWS, the cloud service provider for ArriveCAN.

I'll ask you really directly. Have you ever been given or offered, outside of salary, money or favours or gifts as a result of contractor relationships with regard to ArriveCAN?

[Minh Doan]

No, that has never happened.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Okay.

I would like to know this, too. Is it normal for you and other vice-presidents at CBSA to decide on a technical procurement approach without knowing the names or the backgrounds and competencies of all the vendors involved?

[Minh Doan]

It does happen, and it depends on the nature of the contract, the software or the service that is occurring. As I mentioned, I have 1,400 employees. We were managing 190 enterprise systems. If I had to get engaged in every single contract or every single discussion, I would completely bog down the process and the system.