Government Operations Committee on Aug. 20th, 2024

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

No. You can continue. You were about to finish your statement.

[Mark Quinlan]

Yes. The business decisions belong to the custodial departments.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

The directive on the management of real property states that departments must undertake a full life-cycle analysis, again, before acquiring a real property asset, seeking the best value. Given that the property purchased cost $9 million and the old residence is being sold for over $13 million, would you say there appears to be good value being attained?

[Mark Quinlan]

I believe the specific question, Mr. Chair, should be addressed to Global Affairs Canada. On the part of the question that pertains to the policy, I will defer to my colleague from the Treasury Board Secretariat.

[Samantha Tattersall]

In response to the question, the expectation would be that Global Affairs undertook a life-cycle cost analysis of maintaining the existing and updating it, or acquiring the new one, either through a lease or through a purchase. As part of that life-cycle analysis, it would have looked not just at the cost of acquisition, but at the ongoing operating costs and the potential disposition costs.

The expectation is that GAC looked at that in its options analysis, and that helped inform the decision it took.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

In essence, all levels of government buy and sell properties. This is something that is done. There's a level of maintenance that's required. We see properties that may need to be brought up to code. What are some of those requirements? Maybe accessibility is one.

Were there issues in this case? I understand there was some discussion around the previous residence not being up to code.

If you could talk a bit about the standards and the codes, and what's required in the properties that are being purchased, what do they need? What things should they have, whether it's accessibility for people with disabilities or things of that nature?

[Samantha Tattersall]

I'll start the answer to that question.

Consistent with Treasury Board policy, you want to make sure that, one, you acquire, hold and maintain real property only to support a programmatic need of a department. The requirements around the need for an official residence and what those specifications look like would be set by Global Affairs. It has that authority, pursuant to the departmental legislation. That's the first thing.

There are then requirements around ensuring that the real property supports broader government priorities. They would include greening and accessibility. Those factors should come into play in the business case that Global Affairs undertook to support the transaction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

I'm sorry, but that is past your time, Mr. Bains.

We'll now go to Mr. Genuis. Go ahead, sir.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

My key initial question here is the why, because in a fairly short space of time—about a two-year period—the Government of Canada made three distinct moves.

First, it raised the limit on the value of a property that one department could purchase on its own authority. It raised it from $4 million to $10 million. That reduced accountability and oversight.

Second, Tom Clark was appointed by the Prime Minister to be the consul general in New York. Immediately, with this new, hyper well-connected person in as consul general, it became a Government of Canada priority to purchase a new residence.

You have these three things happening in close succession, and it seems to me that the timing is highly suspicious. There was no indication prior to Mr. Tom Clark getting this appointment that there was a lot of discussion around the need for a new residence, yet immediately after he takes this position, Global Affairs is talking all of a sudden about the need for a brand new residence—it turned out to be luxury residence—for the brand new, politically well-connected consul general.

To the officials, do you know, at least officially, who it was who started the conversation about the alleged need for a new residence? Who was it who said, “Hey, we should get a new residence in New York”?

[Samantha Tattersall]

I'll answer for the Treasury Board Secretariat.

Those decisions occurred under GAC's authority, so we don't have a line of sight of what precipitated the purchase. The only information I can refer to is what was provided to this committee, which they talked about—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It was initiated within the department, though.

[Samantha Tattersall]

That's correct.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It wasn't PSPC or the Treasury Board or any other department saying, “Hey, by the way, it looks like we might need this.” It was Tom Clark, coming in as the new consul general—he's close to the Prime Minister—and then Global Affairs is, on its own authority, initiating this conversation about a new residence.

[Samantha Tattersall]

I would answer that any decisions on this matter would have occurred within Global Affairs.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

To the chief appraiser, I want to clarify the asking price versus the appraised value of the previous property. It was implied by some of my Liberal colleagues that the appraised value was the same as the asking price.

Could you just very clearly clarify that? Is the asking price the same as the appraised value of the property?

[Amélie Bouchard]

Thank you for your question.

In fact, as the appraisal report shows, the property had been on the market for several months. So the price changed a few times.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. It's a simple question. I'm talking about the previous property, not the newly acquired property.

Is the asking price the same as the appraised value, or are they different?

[Amélie Bouchard]

As I said earlier, I can't give you details about the results of the most recent appraisal for this property because it's still on the market.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. That's all I'm looking for. It's just the clarification.

Anyone who's making public comments about the value of that property, politicians or otherwise, isn't doing so on any factual basis.

The previous property has not sold yet. Is that correct?

[Amélie Bouchard]

As far as I know, it's still for sale.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

All right. There is a lot of misinformation being pushed on this, particularly by supporters of the government.

Based on our own research, we've seen that properties in the same building have sold substantially under asking price or have even been taken off the market once put on. I think that's important for the committee to note.

Who decided on the asking price? Was that you? Was that within Global Affairs? Who decided on the asking price for that previous property?

[Amélie Bouchard]

As Mr. Quinlan mentioned in his opening remarks, one of the pillars of the process and operation—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Who made the decision?

[Amélie Bouchard]

I'm getting to that.

I can tell you that this decision wasn't made by the chief appraiser's office. We only provide an independent appraisal—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Who made the decision, though?