Government Operations Committee on Aug. 20th, 2024

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It is for sure. We will follow up with GAC tomorrow, but today I want to hear your perspective. The directive on the management of real property talks about highlighting sound stewardship. Based on what you've read and seen, is there any evidence to say that sound stewardship has not been followed?

[Samantha Tattersall]

I really think that's a question for Global Affairs officials. They have the details of the transaction. I don't have access to all the details. What I have access to is what's been provided to this committee.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Right. I'm asking you, based on what you've seen, whether sound stewardship been followed.

[Samantha Tattersall]

I appreciate the question. I really do think Global Affairs officials need to answer that question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

We'll go to you, Mr. Brock, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Is a feasibility study mandatory for the repair, renovation or purchase of a diplomatic or official residence, pursuant to Government of Canada policies?

[Samantha Tattersall]

You're testing me, but I would say that if you were doing a renovation, you would undertake an analysis. It would be a project, so you would do the normal pre-project definition options analysis before you got into the actual implementation.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

In relation to the existing property owned by the Government of Canada at 550 Park Avenue, before the decision was made to purchase the West 57th Street property, was a feasibility study prepared in relation to that transaction?

[Samantha Tattersall]

I don't know the answer to that question. That would be something that GAC officials would be able to answer, namely, what they looked at in terms of the renovation costs.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Can anyone on this panel weigh in on that answer? Anybody? No. Okay.

In your opinion, Ms. Tattersall, would GAC have been responsible for the creation of a feasibility study, if one was done pursuant to policy?

[Samantha Tattersall]

Yes, as the real property custodian, it would have been responsible for looking at any sort of options analysis before undertaking a renovation.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

There is a talking point about how the purchased new property is smaller and more economical for the taxpayer, but it's very light on details. I know the current property, the new property, is just under 3,600 square feet. What is the square footage of the property on Park Avenue?

Does anyone have an answer to that?

[Mark Quinlan]

I'll defer to my colleague, the director general.

Go ahead, Linda.

[Linda Jenkyn, Director General, Real Estate and National Capital Area Investment Management, Real Property Services, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

The subject property at 550 Park Avenue was 3,873 square metres.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It was 3,800.

[Linda Jenkyn]

Yes. It was 3,873.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The new property is around 200 square feet or square metres less. Would that be your understanding?

[Linda Jenkyn]

That's correct.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That is a very interesting answer, because GAC is giving Canadians the impression that this new move represented a savings opportunity of more than $2 million for Canadian taxpayers, and that it would also reduce ongoing maintenance costs and property taxes, and would support future program needs.

The new property has a carrying cost per year of $235,896 U.S., which is probably just under $400,000 Canadian per year. Specifically, the taxes are $10,000 U.S. per month. Monthly common charges are just under $9,600 U.S.

Does anyone have any information on the taxes and carrying costs on Park Avenue?

[Samantha Tattersall]

I don't have access to those. I don't think PSPC does either, but I would expect that when they did their life-cycle cost analysis, the operating costs of both properties were taken into consideration.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The annual costs for this new property are more than.... We just heard from one of our colleagues from Fredericton, New Brunswick, that the costs are more than the actual purchase price of properties in her hometown.

Do you not think it is a real problem with the Government of Canada that we, as taxpayers, are paying out over $400,000 Canadian per year just to allow Justin Trudeau's buddy to live in luxury in Manhattan?

Is that acceptable to you as a taxpayer? Not only are you civil servants; you're taxpayers. Is that acceptable to you?

[Samantha Tattersall]

Again, what I would say is that the official residence has been acquired to support a mission in New York. The requirements for that would be established by GAC pursuant to the legislation. It acquired that to achieve its mission results in New York.

I don't have anything further than [Inaudible—Editor]—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The sky is the limit, I guess. So long as it meets the mission's needs, the cost be damned. That's what I'm hearing as a taxpayer.

[Samantha Tattersall]

Consistent with Treasury Board policy, it is a best values balance between the real property meeting the operational requirements and the cost of the acquisition and the maintenance over the life cycle of the asset.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Those are the questions I have.

Thank you.