Evidence of meeting #136 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was property.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jonathan Miller  President and CEO, Miller Samuel Inc.
Thomas Aabo  Licensed Real Estate Agent, Douglas Elliman Real Estate

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 136 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, fondly known as the mighty OGGO.

Before we start, colleagues, I'd like to read you a quick note that we received, through our clerk, this morning from Global Affairs. It says:

Good morning, Mr. Clark's staff have confirmed that he would be pleased to make himself available to appear before the committee. September 4th and September 12th are dates that could work for him.

They said if not, they can find another date after he returns from his leave September 3.

Colleagues, if it's okay with everyone here, I'll seek UC to leave it with me and the clerk to work on his appearance for September 12 or a later regular OGGO meeting date. I'll assume we have consensus. Thanks, everyone, for that, and thank you, Mr. Clark, for clearing that up for us.

We will now go to our two witnesses, who are appearing virtually. I understand we have opening statements from both of them, so we'll start with Mr. Miller, please.

Go ahead. The floor is yours for five minutes.

Jonathan Miller President and CEO, Miller Samuel Inc.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you today. Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of Parliament. I appreciate the opportunity to brief you on the New York City real estate market.

I've been a real estate appraiser based in New York City for the past 38 years and am the co-founder of the valuation firm Miller Samuel. Our clients include domestic and international financial institutions, law firms, consulting firms, developers, co-op boards, condo associations, managing agents, individuals, government agencies and federal, New York state and New York City courts.

I am a New York state-certified appraiser and have appraised more than 8,000 residential properties, most of them in Manhattan. In addition, as a U.S. housing market analyst, I have authored research studies in roughly 50 U.S. housing markets, including the New York City metro area. I hold the Counselors of Real Estate designation, I am an appraiser “A” member of the Real Estate Board of New York and I was a two-term president of RAC, a national appraiser organization specializing in providing valuation solutions for complex residential properties. In 2023, I testified in Washington, D.C., at the Federal Housing Finance Agency, or FHFA, the regulator of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, in front of the appraisal subcommittee.

For the past three decades, my market research has been relied on by the media, financial institutions and government agencies, including the Federal Reserve, the Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, the New York Mayor's Office of Management and Budget and the New York State Division of the Budget's Economic Advisory Board. I also co-authored a research paper for New York University's School of Law and the NYU Wagner Graduate School of Public Service's Furman Center for Real Estate and Urban Policy, titled “The Condominium v. Cooperative Puzzle: An Empirical Analysis of Housing in New York City”, which was published in the Journal of Legal Studies at the University of Chicago.

I also teach market analysis as an adjunct associate professor of architecture, planning and preservation in the masters of science in real estate development program at Columbia University. I am a New York state real estate instructor for both qualifying and continuing education courses and serve on the New York City mayor's economic advisory panel, representing the residential real estate sector.

Per my research, Manhattan co-ops and condos represent about 98% of residential sales activity on the island. Since I began my professional practice in 1986, the housing market has undergone significant change, with an expanding condominium market and a weakening co-op market.

Thank you for your time.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much, Mr. Miller.

We'll now go to Mr. Aabo.

It's over to you for five minutes. Go ahead, sir.

Thomas Aabo Licensed Real Estate Agent, Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

Good morning members of Parliament, and thank you for the invitation to participate in this hearing this morning.

My name is Thomas Aabo, and I'm a real estate agent with Douglas Elliman, a U.S.-based real estate firm. We were founded in 1917. Along with my team, the Erin Boisson Aries team, I support a diverse group of clients in real estate transactions in New York and elsewhere. It's our job to source and dispose of real property based on client needs and criteria. In this role, we provide expert guidance and market analysis, as well as marketing, purchasing and sales advisory.

We frequently participate in solicitations and RFPs. In April 2024, we were awarded a contract and started work to support Global Affairs Canada's initiative to secure a new official residence in New York for the Government of Canada. As you may be aware, New York City is one of the most dynamic and highest-value real estate markets in the world. Midtown, a central part of Manhattan, is considered the business and diplomatic centre of New York City, exemplified by an above-average concentration of international residents and organizations and anchored by the UN headquarters on the East River.

Midtown receives heavy investment from foreign governments. The traffic and logistics of a metropolis necessitates that organizations seeking active participation in trade must be located in or near the area. To mention a few recent transactions, they include the British government investing $16 million, the French investing $14 million and the Qataris investing $45 million, while the governments of New Zealand and Denmark both invested between $8 million and $10 million. I'll supply all of these numbers in Canadian dollars as well at the end.

To our knowledge, there is no major foreign government, and certainly none in the G20, that doesn't have meaningful real property investments for public representation in Midtown within 15 minutes of the UN. The 57th Street corridor in Midtown, which has been talked about a fair bit at these hearings, is colloquially referred to as Billionaires' Row because the area is home to rarified residences overlooking Central Park in supertall skyscrapers built within the last decade. They include penthouses with selling prices from $40 million to well over $100 million.

Of course, like all of New York City, the 57th Street area is also a diverse real estate ecosystem. The neighbourhood includes studio apartments that sell for under $1 million. The average price per square foot in this area, which is a common measure of value in New York real estate, is $1,749.

To support OGGO's efforts here today, I thought it would be helpful to detail the process we undertook with Global Affairs to secure the new official residence. As you can imagine, researching and evaluating properties is a deliberate process tailored to every client's needs. In this case, our client provided very specific criteria. They included a minimum of three bedrooms plus den, accessibility compliance, proximity to both the Canadian mission and the UN, detailed security specifications, a location that is not in a co-op, a price point below $9 million, and separation between living quarters and where public duties take place. Furthermore, the location and building had to be attractive for these public functions to be well attended, and building management had to be accommodating for such duties to be performed frequently.

Given these parameters, we presented 39 properties for consideration. The initial list was narrowed down to 21 properties in seven neighbourhoods for in-person visitation. After three days of property visits, a final list of four properties remained and two were nominated for further consideration. One of these finalists did not pass a second security and design review, leaving, by process of elimination, the unit in the landmark portion of 111 West 57th Street, a building that will celebrate its 100th year next year, having been completed in 1925. The entire process was overseen by Global Affairs Canada visiting New York City from Ottawa.

With the selection process completed, negotiations with the seller to achieve the best possible price were supported by the unit being the last available residence in this landmark section of the building—a choice location, but looking out on 57th Street and not over Central Park. The residence was purchased at a 40% discount against the original asking price and 10% off the last asking price, and came to $1,750 per square foot after concessions. This is by far the lowest price in the building. It is 70% less than peer buildings in the neighbourhood, which sell at well over $5,000 per square foot.

Despite the property's desirable location for foreign governments, the price per square foot was also far below the $2,600-per-square-foot average spent by the other foreign governments I mentioned earlier. In fact, the Government of Canada paid just below the average for a standard New York condo, which is currently at $1,764 for the second quarter of 2024, per Jonathan Miller and his company, Miller Samuel.

In conclusion, it is our professional opinion that the Government of Canada, based on the criteria presented and the quality and final purchase price of its new official residence, has secured an asset that will serve the country of Canada for years to come, both fiscally and functionally. It is a savvy investment procured in a well-run process by a diligent team in Ottawa. We present our gratitude for the chance to participate in the process and to bear witness here today.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, sir.

We'll start our six-minute round with Mr. Barrett.

Please go ahead, sir.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I appreciate your comments at the opening of the meeting. It's interesting to hear that we've had a change of heart by Justin Trudeau's $9-million man Tom Clark. He is now saying that he is willing to meet, after having previously said that he would appear and then that he wouldn't appear, and then that he was on leave. Then, when his office was contacted by media, they were told that he was in fact in the office. We have very disingenuous, at best, responses from Mr. Clark. They raise all kinds of questions about who the direction came from for Mr. Clark not to appear as he had originally committed to this week.

This is, of course, in the context of a $9-million residence on Billionaires' Row that will serve one person and duplicate existing space that the office of Canada's representative in New York already has. We heard from Trudeau government officials last week that they were incredibly proud of the $9-million Billionaires' Row accommodations they got for Justin Trudeau's pal. It never occurred to them that it would be optically bad to spend $9 million on a place on Billionaires' Row for a member of the Liberal elite. I think their response, their being unaware of how out of touch this was, says everything you need to know after nine years of Justin Trudeau and his NDP-Liberal government.

Mr. Chair, Mr. Clark had agreed to be here today and he backed out. Now he's saying he will come on one of those dates. Let's pre-empt the conversation we'll have on the date that's selected. If Mr. Clark doesn't come on that date, he'll have exhausted every reasonable courtesy that this committee can extend to him. As the motion did pass unanimously for him to be here, he must be summoned, because otherwise he will be in defiance of this committee's unanimous wish and, of course, will demonstrate that again he did not tell the truth, just as he did yesterday when he said he was on leave but in fact was not. We'll wait and see, but it's clear that this is an effort by the government to try to delay and distract from this latest, $9-million scandal.

To our witnesses, please answer this question as briefly as possible: Is Midtown East appropriate for representational space for a G20 country, in your estimation?

11:15 a.m.

President and CEO, Miller Samuel Inc.

Jonathan Miller

Thank you for the question.

The quick answer is yes, it is. About 95% of the consulates in New York City are located in this neighbourhood or just abutting this neighbourhood. There are about 136 consulates and all but seven are located there.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

To the other witness, do you agree, sir?

11:15 a.m.

Licensed Real Estate Agent, Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Thomas Aabo

Yes, I agree 100%. In terms of Midtown East and the Midtown corridor in general, all of the examples we mentioned earlier in our opening remarks are based in that area, within about 15 minutes of the UN.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Just for my understanding, 466 Lexington Avenue is in that area.

11:15 a.m.

Licensed Real Estate Agent, Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Thomas Aabo

That is correct.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay. That's where the consulate general of Canada in New York is located. We talk about the space that G20 and G7 countries have. We have space there. We have that key space. In 2018, the Government of Canada, financed by the taxes of Canadians, paid for upgraded space, representational space, meeting space—space where meals could be served, events could be held and meetings could be had—at that address, at 466 Lexington Avenue, on the 20th floor. What we have now is a $9-million condo. That condo is supposed to replace another condo that the Government of Canada had procured.

What increased value will Canadian taxpayers get by having a duplicate, a second location, in a desirable neighbourhood? Obviously, other countries are spending big sums of money. I'm not accountable to their taxpayers. I'm accountable to Canadians, as is this Liberal government. What increased value do we get by having a second space?

11:15 a.m.

Licensed Real Estate Agent, Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Thomas Aabo

While I can't speak to the value of a second space versus a first space, it is my understanding that there is an office space and a residence space and that the residence space generally has a facility requirement as well to be performing as a mission asset. Having that space sounds like the right choice for the Government of Canada. The initial—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Just quickly, sir, what was your commission on this sale—just the number, if you could?

11:15 a.m.

Licensed Real Estate Agent, Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Thomas Aabo

I appreciate the question.

The commission was pre-negotiated as part of the RFP process with the Government of Canada.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What was the number, sir?

11:15 a.m.

Licensed Real Estate Agent, Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Thomas Aabo

The commission received by agents during any sales process is always received by the selling party, not by the buyer's side. The seller's party paid out a commission of 4% of the transactional value to our firm.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, please go ahead for six minutes.

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Every time I hear Conservative colleagues like Mr. Barrett speak, I'm reminded that they made a video recently called “Canada, Our Home”, in which they badly manipulated the truth and badly manipulated Canadians. In that same tradition, I see Mr. Barrett mis-characterizing the communication between Mr. Tom Clark and the clerk.

I want to ask the clerk to clarify and confirm that Mr. Tom Clark, from the beginning, was open to meeting with the committee but was simply not available on August 27 and was looking for an alternate date. Can the clerk kindly confirm that for the record? That is, what was the original correspondence from GAC?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

The motion was on July 24, and on August 8 there was an email that stated:

In Marc-Olivier's absence, to inform you that Tom Clark, Consul General of Canada in New York, would be available to appear on Tuesday, August 27, 2024. GAC is awaiting for an official invitation to be sent to them.

It was on August 8 that we received an email from the clerk du jour, as I jokingly call it, because MOG is away on vacation. It stated that Mr. Clark of Global Affairs confirmed that he would appear on the 27th. On the 24th, we received an indication that he would not be appearing, and then yesterday there was a bit of a convoluted back-and-forth between the clerk and GAC. In the end, it came out that we would have to wait until September 3 and then we could discuss a new date. Then this morning we received confirmation that Mr. Clark would be available on September 4 or September 12.

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

As I understand it, because I've seen various comments on social media and elsewhere, Mr. Clark, through GAC, was working with our committee to find a time to appear at this committee. Is that correct?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

The email I received from the clerk on August 8 said that GAC had confirmed his appearance, and then on August 24 they withdrew it. Yesterday it was “we'll see”, and then it was “when he's back September 3, we'll find a date”. Then this morning we received confirmation of available dates. It appears they did confirm and then it was “not available”, and now, this morning, two dates were made available.

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Yes. He's made himself available to appear at this committee. I wanted to get that on the record.

I would like to ask our witnesses here today a question. The listing price for the unit was $9.3 million, and the government paid $8.84 million Canadian, which is half a million dollars off the price. How were we able to knock that price down?

11:20 a.m.

Licensed Real Estate Agent, Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Thomas Aabo

I appreciate the question.

The unit itself is located in the landmark portion of the Steinway factory building, a building that dates back about 100 years. The development had originally seen some relatively high pricing and hadn't been selling at the pace they were looking to sell at. They started to reduce the price, which brought the price of the unit into the parameters that the Government of Canada was seeking to stay within. At that point, the unit selected by the client was the last remaining residence in this landmark tower, and as such, for the developer, it would have been considered a success to dispose of the last remaining unit. They were friendly to the negotiation position we took for the Government of Canada.

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

As I understand it, you visited or looked at 21 properties. It started at 39 properties and went down to 21 properties that were looked at. The price varied between $8 million and $21 million. The Canadian government chose pretty much the lowest-price property.

Do you feel this was a good deal for Canadian taxpayers?