Government Operations Committee on Sept. 17th, 2024

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I fully understand that Canada Post is an entity at arm’s length from the government.

That said, the government implements legislation. If we can’t ask the minister how the Official Languages Act applies to businesses under federal jurisdiction, in compliance with the status of French in Quebec, then what good is this legislation to francophones in Quebec and the rest of Canada? What good is the Official Languages Act if, at the end of the day, no one can tell a company under federal jurisdiction that it must comply with it?

It is important for the minister to come and talk to us about this legislation, explain how it applies to companies under federal jurisdiction, and tell us how it can protect Quebec’s workers and citizens, while respecting the status of French in Quebec.

Later, when the time comes to do our analysis, we’ll be able to make the connection between both aspects and make some suggestions.

If you tell me that the minister can’t talk about the Official Languages Act and how it applies to companies under federal jurisdiction on the grounds that they are at arms’ length from the government, that’s like telling me that the act serves absolutely no purpose and protects no one.

That’s why I want to hear what the minister has to say. I want to listen to him to get a clear and complete analysis.

I hope my intention is clearer now. The aim is really to hear the minister talk about the Official Languages Act and how it applies to companies under federal jurisdiction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

On a point of order, I thought I heard my colleague Mrs. Vignola say earlier that she was putting this motion on notice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I asked her to clarify. She is moving the motion.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank Mrs. Vignola for moving this motion. Respectfully, looking at the subject matter, it does seem to me to be a more natural fit for the languages committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, I do appreciate that oftentimes in discussions we bring forward motions as we discuss certain issues and whatnot, but I would like to have a quick opportunity to discuss this. I haven't had a chance to very quickly discuss this with our team here, so I would ask that we suspend for just a minute, and then we can get back to this issue. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll suspend for a minute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Colleagues, we're back.

I think we have agreement to move ahead with Canada Post and the deputy minister from Official Languages.

The calendar is almost full already, so we may have to move that to, say, whatever our last OGGO day in October is. Are we fine with that, colleagues?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I don't need to read the amended motion. We'll ask for the DM of Official Languages and a representative from Canada Post. It's one two-hour meeting, and we'll do it by the end of October. Are we fine with that?

(Amendment agreed to)

(Motion as amended agreed to)

Colleagues, thank you very much, and I thank whoever suggested that change and the compromise. I appreciate it very much.

Mrs. Kusie, you had your hand up.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also have a motion, but before I get to that motion, I would quickly like to ask about the status of the appearances of Ms. Nicholson and Ms. Joly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We've asked several times. Unfortunately, as much as I tease the departments and I know a lot of them co-operate very well with us, I can't say the same about Global Affairs. They've ghosted us entirely on the situation, despite repeated attempts, as they've done to us in the past.

We will have an update on Thursday. If we don't have an update by Thursday, perhaps the committee may wish to issue a summons so that we can actually get a response from Global Affairs. Right now, despite repeated attempts, we have nothing from them.

Go ahead with your motion, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Well, unfortunately, as reported today...another day, another Liberal scandal. This time it's out of the Department of Environment and Climate Change, where Minister Guilbeault has overseen a failed audit by federal auditors, with poor oversight over millions of dollars in green subsidies. It's not a small amount. It's $625 million since 2016.

We've seen a very bad track record here from this government in terms of the green slush fund and the studies we've undertaken here, including on ArriveCAN, for which the concurrence motion is in the House today, but here we have another report of $625 million since 2016 having failed a federal audit.

The federal audit team indicates that there are significant issues: 45 programs over 11 departments and agencies, no evidence of definite outcomes, no set targets and no measuring and monitoring of impacts. Also, there is no clear guidance to support decisions by programs. The audit report also indicates “errors and inconsistencies” in the work, including “incorrect information”, “erroneous information”, “missing information”, incorrect terms and project files missing in their entirety, something we also have seen with procurement evaluations of this government in the past.

In fact, Mr. Chair, the audit team deems that this was so sloppy.... That's quite a word: “sloppy”. You can usually say “unfortunate”, “inconsistent” or “incomplete”, but it's so sloppy that it poses “potential legal and reputational damage” to the department. That's very concerning, Mr. Chair.

As a result, Mr. Chair, I am now moving this motion, which has been provided to the clerk in both official languages and for which I would ask distribution to the committee:

Given the environment department has failed its audit of the administration of grants and contributions for poor oversight of millions of taxpayer dollars spent on green subsidies and the “potential legal and reputational damage” this represents, the committee dedicate at least three meetings to this matter and call on the following witnesses to testify:

Deputy Minister, Jean-François Tremblay

Assistant Deputy Minister, John Moffet

Assistant Deputy Minister of Corporate Services and Finance and Chief Financial Officer, Linda Drainville

Director General, Chief Audit Executive and Head of Evaluation, Christopher MacDonald

Authors of the “Audit of the Administration of Grants and Contributions at Environment and Climate Change Canada”

Comptroller General of Canada, Annie Boudreau.

I know that the prudent distribution of funds is something that everyone on this committee is committed to, and I'm also aware that this government has prided itself on a number of green initiatives, which we see every day to be ever-failing. Not only is there concern regarding the procurement, but whether they are able to deliver in their said priority of work on climate change and emissions reduction. This is just another proof point—in addition to the carbon tax, I'll add, Mr. Chair—that this is not working for them.

We have another failure here today with this reported failure of an audit coming out of the Department of Environment and Climate Change, and Minister Guilbeault, the felon himself in the green jumpsuit—not green, pardon me; he would have liked it to be green, I'm sure—in the orange jumpsuit is at the helm of this. As a result of this, on behalf of Canadians, I'm asking for the committee to please consider this motion that I have put forward today.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

The motion has gone out. I'll start the speaking list.

I have Mr. Kusmierczyk. Go ahead, sir.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just wanted to ask my colleague, is this not being studied at Public Accounts already? I'm just curious as to whether this is already being looked at by Public Accounts. I think it is. We're talking about the SDTC.

I'm hearing the motion for the first time. Can you clarify what the motion is referencing? Which report?

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes, the motion is referencing the failure of the environment department, as indicated by the “Audit of the Administration of Grants and Contributions”. This is news—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's from Environment Canada.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That's from Environment Canada, yes. Thank you.

It's the “Audit of the Administration of Grants and Contributions”. I indicated the other example as an example.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Did you hear that, Mr. Kusmierczyk?

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

As I understand it, again, this is a TBS issue. As I understand it, as per my original question, this belongs in the public accounts committee, so I would say that's my question about this motion—that this belongs in public accounts. That's the committee that studies these issues.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I would disagree with that. I believe we have the oversight here. We have brought forward many witnesses as a result of failed audits. We have the Auditor General, who, of course, is responsible to this committee with respect to her audit, and this is our response to another audit.

The example you thought I was referring to initially was being studied at public accounts. As I indicated, this is another audit, which was announced in the media today and reported on in the media today. We at government operations have called on several officials before, both elected and unelected, in an effort to hear from them about these failed audits. This is something we make a normal practice of here in government operations—the review of the money, which has been, again in this case, poorly spent on behalf of taxpayers.

For me, this is almost business as usual, another task we would set out to do in hearing from these officials from the Department of the Environment, who have frankly failed this audit. I think it is very much business as usual for us, Mr. Chair, that, when we are made aware of such misspending, we want to take responsibility, recognize it and call in the officials to figure out why it happened.

I feel as though we've passed several motions similar to this one here in government operations. I see this as—unfortunately for your government—just sort of the next item of business on which it has failed, and therefore we need to get to the bottom of why. It's true that many of the answers always seem to point to the same systematic problems, but nonetheless, we cannot turn our backs or close our eyes to 625 million dollars' worth of poor spending, sloppy spending.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

It's over to you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

I will note that the grants and contributions are approved through the process of the estimates, which are approved through this committee.

Go ahead, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Again, I want to underline that this is an important issue. We absolutely want to get to the bottom of this, and there is absolutely no doubt that it requires an investigation. What I am putting forward is that this is the wrong committee, that this belongs in the public accounts committee. This is who has purview over this issue.

In addition, I would say that the officials who are listed are the wrong officials. We should be looking at officials who are responsible for this—TBS officials.

I agree with my colleague that without a doubt this issue requires investigation and discussion, but the proper committee is public accounts. We also want to make sure we have the right officials being summoned, officials who are in a position to answer those questions because they are responsible for those programs, and those officials are TBS officials.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Kusie, go ahead.