Government Operations Committee on Sept. 24th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Ms. Vignola.

Mr. Bachrach, please go ahead, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Chief Bernard and Mr. Ducharme for joining the committee today on this important topic.

I wish I could be with committee members in person today. I'm actually in Terrace, British Columbia, in the northwest of the province, and I'm here to honour the memory of Chief Don Roberts of Kitsumkalum. Chief Roberts was not only a hereditary chief of Kitsumkalum; he was also the elected band chief for almost 20 years. I mention this because, among his many strengths, Chief Roberts was a strong proponent for indigenous business and for economic development in his community. Today, as his family prepares for his memorial this afternoon, my thoughts are with all those who are missing Chief Roberts.

This is a really important topic and an interesting one. I think it's also, as was mentioned, a bit fraught because of, as Mr. Ducharme said, the focus on the instances of fraud and, I guess you could say, identity theft risks overshadowing the successes of indigenous businesses. I start by just noting and agreeing with that important point.

I'm curious about the target-setting by the government and whether setting a 5% procurement target and directing the public service to achieve that target risks overlooking some of these instances of problematic procurement. That is, does it create an incentive to overlook these in the interest of meeting the target?

We heard from Mr. Ducharme that if you were to subtract the value that is being subcontracted out to non-indigenous businesses, the actual value being delivered to legitimate indigenous businesses would be significantly less, and therefore the government would miss its target and probably pay some political price.

My question is for Chief Bernard and Mr. Ducharme. Does the target itself create a problem when it comes to ensuring transparency and integrity in the indigenous procurement process?

[Joanna Bernard]

“Does the target cause a problem?” That's basically in reference to getting to that 5%. I think one of the speakers mentioned something about, “Yes, prove your status by downloading a picture of a bunny just to show status.” This is ridiculous, and this came out of the government department telling this person to do so. That alone tells me there is a problem. They're trying to reach their target, and this is what they're doing. It's just not the way to go, for sure, and it is causing an issue among the indigenous communities or businesses.

I keep on saying “communities”. I want to identify here that this procurement may help the communities because the indigenous businesses are in that community, but if we're also looking to advance our communities with economic development, we have to look at giving aboriginal benefit to the communities. When a first nation business gets a contract, maybe they agree to give a percentage of their revenues for scholarships within their community to help the students, as mentioned by one of the speakers. It's not easy to take a student out of the community that's way up north and send them to school out of their region. That costs money, and we just don't get enough from the government for that.

I'm looking for a potential avenue to support first nations through an aboriginal benefit strategy for the communities as well as for the indigenous business entrepreneur.

[Philip Ducharme]

I believe the 5% was required. It was after the 5% was mandated that a lot of the work was done.

Again, the 5% is just the floor. We need to have at least that 5%. Again, unless we have targets and we measure and report, there's never going to be success. PSAB, PSIB, whatever—it has had a few different names—has gone on this long, and there was never a set target: There was no movement.

I know there are issues. I think that with the way it's set up right now, the government is close to meeting that 5%, but we still have to look at the actual audit of the contracts to see that value. The 5% is very important, because if we don't have something to strive or reach for, it's never going to happen. That being said, it can also cause some issues, because it almost feels like the other 95% of the people with government contracts want a portion of our 5%, which really makes it difficult for us.

I think the 5% is very important. It's a start.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

If I could clarify, you're saying that the target is important because it motivates the government to increase indigenous procurement, but the target shouldn't come at the cost of the integrity of the procurement itself. Is that a fair characterization?

[Philip Ducharme]

Yes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

Your organization, Mr. Ducharme, maintains a directory of indigenous businesses, and there's a process for certifying businesses and for ensuring the integrity of the directory. Indigenous Services Canada also has a directory of indigenous businesses. Is there an opportunity there to reconcile these two directories and to have one directory that is informed by the work of organizations like yours?

[Philip Ducharme]

I think there is. I am quite confident in the directory we do have. It was interesting when one of the first speakers said that the Minister of Indigenous Services said that their sole purpose was to confirm “indigeneity”. My understanding was that the indigenous business directory was made up of different components, not just to show indigeneity but also to show the ownership and control with those documents. We don't do the certification for the government, so I can't speak to what all their processes are, but I know that in what we do, we try to the best of our ability to ensure that these businesses that we do certify do meet the criteria, and we do require the documentation. It is is received from the status cards for first nations and for the Métis people. It's the MNC governing bodies, as well as the Manitoba Métis Federation and the IBD, the indigenous business directory.

I think we could do it quite well. I think we've proven ourselves with our corporate members. As I said, we deal a lot with corporate Canada, and we have a lot of opportunities for indigenous businesses.

Government procurement is not the be-all and end-all for indigenous businesses; it's a piece of the pie, and I think we have a good program.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Chair, do I have a couple of seconds for one more question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No. We're about a minute and a half past your time.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Before we continue the next round with Mr. Genuis, colleagues, as is our habit, or my habit, we've let the first round go past everyone's time, which is fine, because it's an important study, but please, for the next rounds, leave ample time for answers and responses from our witnesses.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead, please, sir.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Ducharme, just very directly, building off the round of questioning we just had, you have a list of indigenous businesses. You work hard on it. You engage to make sure that the list is accurate, and it's reflective of very clear criteria. The federal government does not use your list; they have their own list, and we've seen various revelations about how flawed their processes are.

I don't understand why the federal government wouldn't just engage with indigenous leaders and indigenous business organizations to ask if they can use the list you're developing to identify indigenous businesses for its own procurement policies. Is there any impediment that I'm missing to simply taking on this collaborative approach that would use the work that's already being done?

[Philip Ducharme]

I think it would be very simple process to have us recognized. I do know when Defence Construction Canada talks to corporate Canada for subcontract opportunities, they do talk about the CCIB indigenous business list. Unfortunately, right now it's not recognized. They still have to be within the indigenous business directory. However, we have been advocating because we are very confident that the businesses that we do have are indigenous businesses. Corporate Canada leans on our list for their indigenous procurement.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Right. The private sector is using your list. I'm hearing you say that there's no impediment. I would just add that this is so typical of the way the federal government often operates: trying to replicate work that's already being done and doing it less well.

I want to follow up directly on Mr. Battiste's questions.

When it comes to indigenous identity, we all understand that there are going to be some complex or marginal cases, but there are also some very clear-cut cases. As part of one of these investigations, a reporter was able to get so-called “certification” through an online attestation.

I believe that indigenous identity is something real; it's not how you feel. It's not something that someone like me can just decide they want and then claim it. It's something that is real and objective.

In that context, I note that a couple of members of Parliament, both indigenous themselves, have used the words “pretendian” or “pretendianism” to describe this phenomenon of people outright pretending to be indigenous in order to benefit. I want to ask you a multipart question about that.

The first is on language. Do you think this terminology is appropriate? Is this terminology that we should be using or not?

Second, my understanding is that concerns about this falsification of identity are broader than just procurement and that we see other instances in which this pretending to be indigenous is causing problems. What can we do about it?

Then, third, would you agree with what I said at the beginning, which was that indigenous identity is something objective? It's not a subjective question of how you feel; it's an objective, verifiable reality.

For this, maybe we'll start with Chief Bernard, and then, hopefully, there'll be some time for Mr. Ducharme.

[Joanna Bernard]

It's an issue, definitely, in regard to the verification of the status or the validity of the indigenous aspect of any individual. It's just not right that it's different for each of the three different organizations. There needs to be some consistency in those three when we're verifying who is indigenous and who is not. There needs to be some consistency.

As first nations status goes, it's cut off at the second generation, whereas the other issues and the validity of indigeneity is a free-for-all. As mentioned before, you just pop up a bunny picture and you're indigenous—I don't understand how that ever happened—if that person happens to be on one of the lists of the national organizations. I do question the validity of those memberships.

If a first nations person has falsely received their status, it will be revoked. When those individuals who have falsely claimed status have been brought to the forefront, the federal government has taken it back from them. It would be the same for all three organizations.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Can I ask Mr. Ducharme the same thing? I cut him off last time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Make it really quick, because I'm going to end up cutting you off.

[Philip Ducharme]

Unfortunately, when you said "terminology", I kind of lost what you were asking.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It was about the word “pretendian” that some members of Parliament—

[Philip Ducharme]

Pretendianism is something that is very.... I'm in my 50s. I've been around a long time. I've faced a lot of discrimination. When I first started hearing about people pretending or trying to be indigenous, I took them at face value. Why would someone want to be indigenous with all the issues that we had in the Prairies with people being indigenous? If I could have hidden it, I would have hidden it, but I couldn't hide it. I was physically visible as an indigenous person.

Pretendianism is something that's a very personal thing. It's shocking that it's happening, and it's sad, but sometimes people take advantage of it, like anything that people try to take advantage of. You're always going to find unscrupulous people who take advantage of being indigenous.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Baines, go ahead.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ducharme, I come from Richmond, British Columbia. It's a traditional territory of the Coast Salish Musqueam people.

Boeing has a 100-year history there. They recently made an investment of about $61 million, out of which $13 million went to Cota Aviation. It's a manufacturing firm. They make machinery and parts. They're a supplier for Boeing now.

What role does the private sector have when it comes to indigenous procurement?

[Philip Ducharme]

The private sector has led on indigenous procurement in Canada. I'm more familiar with what's going on out west. I'm from Saskatchewan. If you look at the resource sector, you see that they have led the way. Look at the Wood Buffalo region and all that has been done there.

Corporate Canada is also a little bit more flexible. When they look at their procurement opportunities, if the top guy says, "You know what? We're going to use this person", it's going to happen. It's a little bit different. I think corporate Canada is realizing that by utilizing indigenous businesses, it is growing the indigenous economy. Ultimately, it's always a business case. When you grow the indigenous economy, hopefully they, in turn, are going to be buying your products or services. Corporate Canada is really making a good effort.

Cota Aviation, which you mentioned, was one of the first indigenous businesses to get a tier-one contract with the navy on submarine retrofitting. It is showing success. I think corporate Canada has done a great job.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I know the directory was discussed earlier. You said CCIB has its own and the government has its own. Are there commonalities between these lists? How different are they, and are you aware of the differences between these lists?