Government Operations Committee on Sept. 24th, 2024

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Regional Chief, I share with you your concerns about the Indian Act and the cut-off. I know we've had conversations about this, and I've had conversations with the national chief.

We passed Bill C-15 on UNDRIP, which has article 33. It says:

Indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions. This does not impair the right of indigenous individuals to obtain citizenship of the States in which they live.

Bill C-15 has now received royal assent, and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples is the law. We believe that this is the law in Canada.

Has the AFN tabled any kind of resolution to assist the government in determining a better system to determine status, moving forward?

[Joanna Bernard]

As you know, Jaime, there are a lot of resolutions being passed in reference to this.

All I have to say is this: Stop doing the work behind closed doors. Bring us to the table and work with us. We will help you have a better understanding of how to get these policies and even legislation changed. However, we need to be there with you. We need to work with you from the very beginning of the issue, not after all the years go by and after time and money have been wasted. Then you say, “Well, how can we fix it?”

Bring us in from the beginning. I think that should help in reference to getting this right, finally.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Regional Chief.

Isn't that the process the minister is currently undertaking with the AFN? I know she's working with the youth council and the AFN in a consultation process that opened up in December to explore ways around the second-generation cut-off.

[Joanna Bernard]

Well—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt—

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Yes or no would be fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No, we're not out of time. You have about 25 seconds to respond.

[Joanna Bernard]

I want to say there should be a cut-off for other organizations. If you're going to do a first nations cut-off, you must do it with other organizations. If you don't, stop the cut-off after the second generation. Let us decide who the people living in our communities are.

As you know, if you're living in the community and you are not status, you don't get funding for it. However, we put them in as members of our communities because we take care of our families.

There's no way in heck we would tell the Prime Minister that his grandchild is not his blood, so come on. We have to fix this. That's another subject.

I mean, you know as well as I do—

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Joanna.

I'm out of time here, but if the AFN has any reports or resolutions they could table to help this committee determine what they feel is the best way to determine first nations identity, that would be very helpful. I think that such a document would be very well received by this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Kusie, please go ahead.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Ducharme and Chief Bernard, for being here with us today.

I want to go back to some previous testimony, Mr. Ducharme, from 2018—prior to the August 6, 2021, announcement—to measure what you said—or what you suggested, I should say—versus what the government produced.

In 2018, when OGGO previously studied this issue, your organization sent in a brief stating that the federal government should award points to bidders based on their relationships with indigenous businesses and communities to ensure that there is indigenous engagement throughout their supply chain.

Is this a recommendation that was accepted and acted upon by this government, in your opinion?

[Philip Ducharme]

I'm sorry. I don't quite understand. Was that from corporations that would have to ensure they had indigenous inclusion within their opportunities?

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes. It's that in going through a procurement process, more points should be awarded to those bidders that have relationships with indigenous businesses and communities, not solely on the basis of being recognized as indigenous through the self-proclamation or officially, as in the processes we have heard throughout the testimony in this committee, but through the relationships.

Do you still believe that's important and do you believe this recommendation was incorporated into the process?

[Philip Ducharme]

It has been implemented into some of the process, and I think that's within the indigenous participation plans. In a lot of government, there is no standard procedure right now, or a threshold for that, but with some of the bigger contracts, there is an indigenous participation plan that's included within it. Within that participation plan, they talk about community investment and they talk about employment and subcontracting opportunities, and they are awarded points for that.

The evaluation of that has to happen with all of them. I know that the federal government.... Again, there should be a threshold. It shouldn't be just at the discretion of the contracting authority as to whether or not to include an indigenous participation plan. I think that's very valuable, because that does give the smaller ones.... It's also, as Chief Bernard was talking about with the community investment within these participation plans, that they will go into the community. They might help with building a school or building a park. It is happening more. They are seeing it more.

That's why some of our corporate members are also hoping that the federal government would recognize our certified indigenous businesses, because they are working with those businesses, and that could be included within their indigenous participation plan results.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you for that.

However, in the 2018 study, government officials also testified that they encouraged indigenous businesses to enter joint ventures with non-indigenous businesses to bid on contracts. In your opinion, should this practice be encouraged, or should the focus be entirely on improving socio-economic outcomes for first nations? I shouldn't say “entirely”; it should be entirely based on that, but should that be done through not encouraging indigenous businesses to enter joint ventures with non-indigenous businesses?

[Philip Ducharme]

Well, I think joint ventures do have a place, and they are required, because if the smaller indigenous business.... A lot of it could also even be with the insurance requirements, with the bid bonding, in that the indigenous businesses don't have the capacity to do that. The non-indigenous businesses, the joint ventures, are there to help the indigenous businesses grow.

There should be a shelf life for a joint venture. I mean, there have been times where a joint venture has been going on for 20 years. If it's a true joint venture, that non-indigenous partner should have helped that indigenous partner to become their own prime contractor themselves.

Joint ventures are important, but they have to be looked at, and it has to be ensured that the benefit is going out, that there is growth for the indigenous business. It can't be something that's always going to be able to bid on these contracts and be getting contracts for 20 years because of a JV but with no growth for the indigenous partner.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

In our evaluation of the ArriveCAN scandal, we found that there were significant faults in the subcontracting processes. In your opinion, should there be an overview of the subcontracting process to ensure indigenous involvement throughout the supply chain?

[Philip Ducharme]

There is, and that's why I've been saying earlier that there should be a pre-award audit or a post-contract audit done to ensure that what has been claimed to be benefiting indigenous businesses is happening for those ArriveCAN contracts.

Again, I'm not privy to them. I don't know what it is. I just see the media, and media, or what is reported, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. If they actually looked at that and if there was a value within that ArriveCAN process that went towards the PSIB or the amount of indigenous procurement.... I don't understand. I don't know if any of that value went to the procurement strategy for indigenous businesses as part of an indigenous spend.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Next is Mr. Kusmierczyk, please.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ducharme, for being here today.

Before I became a member of Parliament, I worked for a regional innovation centre, WEtech Alliance, and we helped to establish a program. We worked with first nation indigenous partners to establish a program called Supporting Aboriginal Youth Entrepreneurs in Windsor and Essex—SAYEWE.

It was a fantastic program, and it's through that program that I got a chance to also learn about the incredible work of the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business, the CCIB, a wonderful organization that does great work. I also learned that indigenous businesses are the fastest-growing segment of entrepreneurs in Canada.

There was one particular young entrepreneur who started a company called Culture Shock and was selling jewellery and apparel. I can tell you of the immense pride we all felt when that entrepreneur opened up a brick-and-mortar storefront in Windsor several years ago. It's a great success. It was wonderful to be part of that.

How important is it? In your opening statement, you mentioned a company that was very successful through this federal procurement process. How important is it, in your opinion, to share the success stories of indigenous businesses working through the federal procurement program? How important is it to get those good stories out?

[Philip Ducharme]

Thank you, and thank you for the compliments for CCIB. I would also like to recognize our president and CEO, Tabatha Bull, who is actually sitting right behind me. She should have been up here. I think a lot of our success has been a result of the great leadership that she's brought forward to CCIB.

As indigenous people, quite often we don't want to brag about ourselves. It's hard for us to promote and brag. I think we at CCIB need to be doing that. We need to showcase, because you can see the success and the growth and what indigenous businesses have done. It's a little bit frustrating sometimes when people say, “Oh, I worked with an indigenous business, and I did that.” Well, why do you think we can't do that? Unfortunately, that is sort of the perception.

So much media attention, whenever indigenous people are involved, is negative, just like with indigenous procurement. A lot of these occasions when people have taken advantage of it are showcased. That gets the bites. That's what people look at. I think we should always be celebrating. We do that through our award systems at CCIB.

I've had some of great friends. Chief Bernard was talking about John Bernard. I was working with John in the 1990s. He's been one of our indigenous leaders. He's actually won a lifetime achievement award through CCIB for entrepreneurship.

It's so uplifting for our young people to see someone that looks like them succeeding, having a nice car, having a nice house and sharing and giving them opportunities. At any time, we should focus a lot more on success as opposed to failure, and I think indigenous procurement is a means of success.

Look at the Bouchier Group. It's a privately held company. They gave a million dollars away to charities this year. They employ 40% indigenous people from 80 communities around the country.

We can take care of ourselves, you know. If, all of a sudden, you decide to drop this, well, bad on you, but we are still going to succeed. As indigenous people, we've been knocked down and opportunities have been taken away from us so often, but we are resilient and we're going to keep going.

I think we do need to showcase our success. There are incredible businesses. I am so proud. I think I'm one of the luckiest people. I travel across the country working with indigenous businesses. We have round tables talking about this, and innovation. If you look at the defence sector, there are so many new, upcoming, innovative...that provide so many great things.

We are hosting an indigenous procurement event in Edmonton on October 16. We have four certified indigenous businesses that are going to be showcasing the innovation they bring. Some of the stuff they bring is actually going to help corporate Canada. They can sell some carbon capture points. I don't know what all that is, but the innovation that indigenous businesses are bringing is incredible. We're going to showcase that.

We're also going to showcase our aboriginal procurement champions, who are doing a lot to help indigenous businesses. We're also going to be talking about government procurement.

We welcome anyone to join. It's going to be a great event. We just need to promote and showcase that we are successful and that there's a lot to be proud of.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I would love to have a conversation with you about how we ourselves here and the media can spotlight those tremendous, uplifting, positive stories about tremendous indigenous businesses and success stories. I would love to work with you on that.

Also, I understand the work of this committee in wanting to strengthen the program. I just want to quote the minister here, Minister Hajdu, who stated, “We're working with indigenous partners to think through a better way, perhaps even at some point turning over maintenance of the list to indigenous partners.” I wanted to get it on the record that we are working with first nations, Métis, Inuit—our indigenous partners—to make sure that we are improving this program so that it serves our entire Canadian community and indigenous partners.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

Mr. Ducharme, thank you for choosing the great city of Edmonton to showcase its successes.

Ms. Vignola, please go ahead.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I agree with you, Mr. Ducharme, it's also important to highlight the good things, the successes and what's going well. When we point out what's not going so well, it's precisely to achieve greater success. That's my point of view. I'm a positive grumbler, meaning that I'm trying to find what's wrong to make things better. So it's constructive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but among the difficulties your members are experiencing, I believe one is caused by the Indian Act. I find it hard to say the name of the act, because I don't like it. If someone wants to obtain a loan while living on a reserve, they will have all the trouble in the world receiving funding, because they can't offer any guarantees.

Am I wrong in saying that this is a major burden and obstacle for indigenous entrepreneurship?