Government Operations Committee on Sept. 24th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Vignola is next.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ducharme, you were talking earlier about the fact that indigenous businesses are required to have indigenous employees, but the same isn't true for businesses owned by women or visible minorities. I agree with you. There's a form of racism or discrimination. It's about creating more barriers for indigenous businesses. It's like adding an extra challenge to them.

I'm going to back up a little bit. You said that, if no one has the necessary training in the community, it's normal for them to go outside the community.

Is there something that's hindering access to training in some communities? If so, how could that be remedied?

[Philip Ducharme]

This deals a bit with employment, which is outside of my everyday realm of work, but there's not enough funding out there for indigenous people to get to these different programs. If you look at the educational groups to see how much funding is out there for indigenous business, you'll see that this could be an area where they're struggling.

Again, our indigenous businesses, and even non-indigenous businesses, are always looking for indigenous people within certain sectors. Within the engineering field, there's a very limited number. I believe there are only 17 certified indigenous architects in Canada. That was a couple of years ago, so there are areas.

As I mentioned earlier, some indigenous businesses are training these people, getting them their certificates and hoping they stay on, but they're still celebrating if they move on to other areas.

I think working together with the asset holders to bring about the opportunities and actually do stuff where there are opportunities, and not just going to school for the sake of going to school.... If there are actually trades in different areas where there is a real lack of indigenous employees, it would be beneficial.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

[Philip Ducharme]

Thanks. I don't think I answered the question, but maybe I did. Never mind.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll go to Mr. Bachrach, and then I need about 30 seconds for some housekeeping.

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks again to both of our witnesses for their part in this important conversation.

Indigenous Services Canada has a procedure in place for pre-award compliance audits. I'm curious to know, Mr. Ducharme, whether any of the businesses that are members of your organization have been subject to such pre-award compliance audits. If so, what has their experience of that audit process been?

[Philip Ducharme]

In the past, we had a couple of businesses that were audited. They said it was a very thorough process that they went through.

There used to be a trigger, I think, on the value of contracts they said there would be audits for, but I don't know if that has ever been completely followed through.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I believe the trigger that causes those audits to be required is a value of $2 million. There's some discretion to perform audits in other cases as well.

I guess the question is whether you feel that the audit process is sufficiently robust to ensure the integrity of the overall process, or whether there are improvements needed when it comes to audits.

[Philip Ducharme]

I think that the audit process should almost be done at the beginning to ensure that they meet the criteria to allow them to actually be included in the directory.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Then it should be more comprehensive and applied in more cases prior to even being considered, as opposed to right before a contract award?

[Philip Ducharme]

Yes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Chief Bernard, do you share that view?

[Joanna Bernard]

Yes, I do.

I do want to note, as I know he's closing in two seconds, that we have resolution 73/2023 that was passed at the AFN last year at the general assembly, which I would like to submit, if I'm allowed to. Also, I have the document on the standing committee from 2006. This was in reference to the procurement strategy.

Have the people around the table who are making these decisions received this document? If not, am I able to submit it?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Chief Bernard, I'm sure the committee would appreciate your tabling both of those documents for our review as part of this study.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'll hand the floor back to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

I'll get to you in a second, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Ducharme and Chief Bernard, thank you very much for joining us. You've both been wonderful witnesses. We've gone through the study partially in 2018, and I'm still learning more on the issue, and you've brought some very important things forward for us to work on. I hope we'll see you back at OGGO one day in the future when we're celebrating fixing this system.

I need about 30 seconds for housekeeping.

You're welcome to sit in on this OGGO business, or you can excuse yourselves. Thank you again for joining us.

Colleagues, really quickly, on September 30, we're not here. On October 1, we're kicking off the environment audit. My intent is to invite the deputy minister and the CFO to start off, and then ask you to provide witnesses by tomorrow for the other two meetings. Can you do that by 3 p.m. tomorrow?

The Canada Post study has gone out. Could you have recommendations to us within one week, within seven days, please? Translated would be preferred.

On Canada Post, Mrs. Vignola had a motion regarding official languages. TBS has requested to join along. They were not part of the witness list, so I'm just seeking unanimous consent to have TBS join official languages and Canada Post at that meeting. Are we fine with that? Wonderful.

On the environment thing, and then Mr. Genuis....

Go ahead, Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Can you refresh my memory around the environment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

This is on the grants and contribution audit.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That came out, I think, last week or the week before.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay, that's why. I wasn't here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We passed a motion for three meetings.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I figured we'd just start off with the DM and the CFO and fill the other two—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

You want witnesses for that by the end of the day tomorrow.