Government Operations Committee on Oct. 16th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

We'll now go to Mrs. Vignola, please, for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Semaganis, it can't be easy to identify and report people posing as indigenous or Inuit. Your website has a long list of organizations that claim to be indigenous, Métis or Inuit. How was that list compiled?

[Crystal Semaganis]

The efforts of the Ghost Warrior Society are done in affiliation with other grassroots organizations, such as the Tribal Alliance Against Frauds in the United States, as I mentioned previously, as well as other collectives, such as the Indigenous Women's Collective, the Matriarchal Circle and all of these other grassroots collectives that study the issue of pretendianism.

Pretendianism is so prevalent in our spaces that it's creating a lot of toxic work environments for people. What's happening is that our people are suffering isolated traumas across this nation in workspaces, campuses, cultural spaces and industries in which they should be able to move freely and safely. However, this has not been the case. When it comes to pretendians, we are intent on taking back the space from people who have taken space to which they are not entitled.

Some of the most notable cases are on our website, such as Beverly Santamaria, Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond and Michelle Latimer. These are harms that were imposed on our communities and drove us to action, because there's really nothing being done. There are no legal sanctions for pretendianism. There are no consequences.

One of the most notable cases was of Amira and Nadya Gill, who got close to $200,000 in post-secondary funding allocated to Inuit students over a seven-year period, yet there were no legal consequences for them. There are no sanctions. There are no deterrents. Therefore, there is no expectation that we would have any fairness as things stand right now. There needs to be change. There need to be legal changes made. There need to be consequences for pretending to be indigenous when you are not and for taking resources to which you are not entitled.

Thank you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Semaganis and Mr. Carignan, my questions are for both of you. I have three and a half minutes left, so you can share that time.

The procurement strategy for indigenous businesses includes a verification process to ensure that businesses are indigenous. Have you had a chance to look at that process? In your opinion, are the verification criteria sufficient to prevent non-indigenous businesses from masquerading as indigenous businesses? If not, what criteria should be put in place to avoid this identity fraud?

[Denis Carignan]

Is that for me?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

You can answer first, Mr. Carignan, and then Ms. Semaganis.

[Denis Carignan]

Okay. I'm sorry, but I wasn't sure the question was addressed to me, since it was asked in French.

We're an IT services company, primarily, and a training company, secondarily. We rely on individual community organizations to connect us with potential trainees. One of the things we do is seek out funding to provide training for individuals, oftentimes from these organizations. They know best who their members are. They know best who the citizens of their communities are and who is legitimately entitled to the programming they offer.

That's one way we use, essentially, a proxy, because it's impossible to know everyone. It's important for us to get some local knowledge of who the people are and what their interests are. Also, it's one way for us to validate that the people who come into our program are indigenous and are who they say they are.

[Crystal Semaganis]

For the Ghost Warrior Society, I would concur. What is currently in place is ineffective.

We also use that proxy protocol, meaning that, when we are authenticating, we do not say to the Dene Nation, “This is not your person.” We ask the Dene Nation, “Is this your person? Is this your member? Is this your beneficiary?” We always collaborate with the nations claimed by the individual, corporation or entity in order to ask, “Is this a legitimate organization?” We are not the ones to say, “It is this person.” We work with the nations claimed.

That's a very important distinction to make. I think any solution must be led by first nations, Métis and Inuit.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Should the Government of Canada also use certified indigenous organizations to determine whether a business is indigenous or not?

[Crystal Semaganis]

Yes. Any indigenous—first nations, Métis or Inuit—entity, organization or corporation is operating within the parameters of not only their community and land base but also an umbrella organization, such as the Union of Ontario Indians or the Nishnawbe Aski Nation. There are always larger political bodies that must be involved in all aspects, at all levels of verification and throughout the process.

When you collaborate and engage with these umbrella government organizations—Treaty No. 9 or Treaty No. 6—you are empowering indigenous people across the board. You are validating their processes, nationhood and autonomy. It's very important that government listen to the governmental, political bodies and organizations that are already in place, especially when they say things like, “The NunatuKavut Community Council is not eligible for the amount of funding they have received over these many decades.”

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us today to answer our questions on this important issue.

I apologize if my point of order near the beginning was a bit abrupt. I wanted to make sure I could hear everything that was going on, and it was a little challenging. Forgive the interruption.

Ms. Semaganis, your last point about allowing indigenous nations to verify that individuals belong to them—as opposed to asking the individuals whom they belong to—seems very central to this question of indigenous identity. Is this at odds with the way the federal government is currently confirming indigeneity when it comes to procurement?

[Crystal Semaganis]

The problem is colonialism meeting a cultural protocol that has been present for centuries and centuries. There are many non-colonial entities that still operate within first nations, Métis and Inuit communities and spaces, such as the Ghost Warrior Society or medicine societies that exist and uphold our cultural integrity.

When it comes to procurement and engaging with those organizations, you are validating their processes. That is probably not a colonial approach, but it is a lack of colonial mindfulness about how first nations, Métis and Inuit identify ourselves outside of colonial mechanisms and frameworks. That is keenly important in furthering the economic growth of first nations, Métis and Inuit.

I hope that answers your question. If you have anything more specific, I'd be more than happy to answer.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

No, that's very helpful.

You talked about the need for a central organization or entity that could, in a proper way, verify the legitimacy of indigenous organizations. I know a number of national indigenous organizations have recently formed an indigenous procurement office.

I wonder if you're familiar with that and whether you think that kind of body could hold promise for serving the function you noted.

[Crystal Semaganis]

I see a great deal of potential in that kind of organization. I was involved with the Native Women's Association of Canada for last year's event in January 2023 regarding procurement, which happened in Gatineau, Quebec. This coming week, I will be speaking at the Union of National Employees' 2024 Women's Conference about first nations, Métis and Inuit identity fraud in relation to economic development in the women's movement.

It's very important that recognition and empowerment are given to these first nations, Métis and Inuit bodies, so we can tell you how we would like to be measured, seen and validated. These are our validation processes, and you must listen to them. When colonialism ignores the indigenous way of doing things, problems happen and exploitation runs rampant, unchecked. This is what motivated my journey here today: trying to make positive change in something that has run roughshod over my people's resources, spaces and autonomy.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Semaganis.

I wonder, Mr. Chair, whether I have a moment to pose a question to Mr. Carignan.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, you have two minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Oh, fabulous.

Mr. Carignan, in the letter you sent to the committee, you highlighted your feeling that some of the verification processes pose a barrier to entry for indigenous businesses seeking to participate in procurement. Could you perhaps lay out, in a bit of detail, what those barriers are, specifically?

[Denis Carignan]

I'm not referring to whether a business is indigenous or not. What I'm referring to is the certification process, going in—the TBIPS process and the various security processes. If I have a start-up business and want to do this, each of those processes requires a fair bit of time and effort to complete. The completion of those doesn't guarantee there's actually work at the end of the day. We're able to do that, because we're an established business with a professional CFO, a professional sales team and all kinds of things. We're able to generate content. We're able to satisfy those requirements to make sure we can get those certifications.

If part of the goal is to create more indigenous suppliers, especially ones at the start-up level, it's awfully difficult for a company trying to manage cash flow and payroll to go through and do all of those extra things. If there's a way of supplementing that, as part of an indigenous procurement.... Having a capacity partner be a big company supporting a smaller company to develop those skills and experience is the kind of thing that could help.

Really, when it comes to jumping through all the hoops in order to become a certified supplier, it's quite a big list of things.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Is it fair to say that one of the risks, if those barriers to entry remain, is that the only indigenous businesses that will be able to access procurement will be big ones with the capacity to jump through all of those hoops?

[Denis Carignan]

That is a risk, especially in the technology space.

Again, the government is a sophisticated buyer, and scale matters. Being larger matters. Responding to an RFP process may require a 500-page presentation deck as part of it. You need to be a big company to have the resources to generate that content and provide all the experience and references. Helping smaller companies get to that stage, or working together to demonstrate that, is important.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Brock, please go ahead, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance, those online and those in person. I know that those of you who are here in person had a very long drive, so we really appreciate the effort that you put into this.

I listened very carefully to both opening statements. I think we need to go back to how we got here. How we got here is another example of a Prime Minister who engages in corrupt practices that award billions of taxpayer dollars with no oversight. It's another scandal.

What really brought this particular scandal to light was the ArriveCAN scam. That app was supposed to cost taxpayers under $100,000, but it mushroomed into tens of millions of dollars. According to the Auditor General, at least $60 million went into this app, and that's only a guesstimate because the paperwork was absolutely shoddy.

Inherent in that, we find out that there is an indigenous-owned company called Dalian, owned by an individual by the name of David Yeo. He claims that the business is aboriginally owned and veteran-operated. He works in conjunction with another company, Coradix, and the two of them together are among the top recipients of contracts under the indigenous set-aside program. The company itself received close to $8 million for its work on the ArriveCAN app. When David Yeo testified at committee, he could not identify exactly what he did. Most of the work was handled by Coradix, which has no indigenous ownership and no indigenous employees, yet the government saw fit to allow this to go unchecked, unabated.

You referenced at the beginning that you've done years of research and that you've identified billions of dollars pilfered by fake businesses. What do you say, Crystal, as a result of that statement I've just given to you, that the federal government has allowed this to continue for as long as it has without any consequences?

[Crystal Semaganis]

My response is that the Ghost Warrior Society does not have any favourites in terms of political parties. I think that colonialism is equally dismal across all sectors when it comes to serving the true needs and supporting the genuine growth of first nations, Métis and Inuit.

When it comes to that particular scandal, for those two entities to have absolutely no indigenous, aboriginal affiliation is indeed horrific—to the extent of $8 million. It is indicative of a systemic exploitation that happens in relation to procurement and the government awarding monies in the name of first nations, Métis and Inuit to these companies, corporations and entities in the name of reconciliation when they are not indigenous at all.

What measures were not met? What maintenance, what reports, what failed to that extent? I also ask that for NunatuKavut, because $8 million is small in comparison to $163 million since 1994 for the NunatuKavut Community Council. Again, these are astronomical numbers. When I say “billions of dollars per year”, I mean per year. If you look at the last two decades, that's hundreds of billions of dollars that have been pilfered from first nations, Métis and Inuit resources—very limited resources—and that have gone off to a performance of reconciliation.